Podcast S9E15 | Keanu Reeves is Not in Love With You by Becky Holmes

TRANSCRIPT

Kimberley Cole 0:01
This is Risky Women Radio, a show that connects, celebrates and champions women in risk regulation and compliance. We’re here to share the insights on the biggest issues in our industry and hear inspiring journeys from our global members. Sign up to our newsletter at riskywomen.org. I’m Kimberley Cole, your Chief Risky Woman.

Kimberley Cole 0:25
Welcome to Risky Woman Radio. Today’s risky woman is a best-selling author, speaker, and one of the internet’s most entertaining fraud fighters. Through her popular social media account at Death to Spinach, she has become famous for turning the tables on romance scammers with humor, wit, and some truly outrageous conversations. Her best-selling book, Keanu Reeves Is Not in Love with You, shines a light on the world of romance fraud and online deception, blending sharp insights with plenty of laughs. A sought-after speaker and media commentator, she helps audiences understand the psychology of scams and their real-world impact on victims. With her new book, The Future of Fraud exploring AI, crypto, social media, and the dark web, she continues to challenge fraudsters while educating and entertaining audiences around the world. So, welcome, Becky Holmes.

Becky Holmes 1:21
That’s quite the introduction. I suddenly feel a lot more important than I actually am.

Kimberley Cole 1:27
Well, I have been dying to have this conversation because I think you’re doing some amazing things, and obviously, yes, I have had a few laughs along the way reading the background, and of course, kicking off with Death to Spinach. So you didn’t set out to become one of the most recognised voices in fraud awareness. So take us on your career journey and how you got here.

Becky Holmes 1:53
Completely by chance and entirely out of boredom. So it all started during lockdown when I set up my Twitter, as it was then, X account, and just kind of minding my own business, really. And I had a ton of messages from really young, hot soldiers. Some with their shirts off, which was appreciated. Thank you to them, and you know, just generally looking great in their uniforms, and they all started with “Hello, dear, “Hello, my queen, etc. Now, I always say this, but if it had been just one handsome soldier that had messaged me, this could be an entirely different conversation because I really am the sort of person that just talks to people, and I am also the sort of person that could very easily get caught up in a romance scam. Because I am sort of quite enthusiastic, and I do give my heart away. But because there were so many that came in all at once, it was easily recognisable to me that something was going on, so I just started looking into it, putting my conversations up on Twitter, seeing what I could get away with with these conversations I was having with them, and people were finding it funny. And then actual victims of romance fraud started messaging me and saying, “This is what’s happened to me. So during lockdown, I became, I guess a kind of listening ear for some people who hadn’t shared their experiences with friends and family, and then before you know it, I’ve written a book. It was all surreal to me looking back. I think if I hadn’t set up that Twitter account, what would I be doing now? It’s a really sort of sliding doors moment.

Kimberley Cole 3:39
And what was the writing journey that when you decided to go on, so you started posting these exchanges online, you’ve now become this fraud advocate and obviously a best-selling author and speaker. Was the writing journey itself like what you expected it to be?

Becky Holmes 3:55
I’ll be honest with you. When I was writing it, I didn’t think anyone would read it, so although I took the process very seriously, I was quite laid back about it because for me, I’d been poorly for quite a long time and was sort of trying to get back into doing something part time, ready to build up to being able to do more. So for me, it was obviously writing the book, but it was also about my own journey coming back into the working world, so I didn’t see it as like a writing journey becoming an author. It was just something I was doing. So..

Kimberley Cole 4:18
And what was your career to start with?

Becky Holmes 4:34
So many moons ago, before I got poorly, I used to work in PR. So I ran the last job I had before getting ill. I was running a press office for part of AXA, which is a wealth management company, and I’d been at different PR agencies before then, so entirely different. Although some writing skills, I guess.

Kimberley Cole 4:52
Some good communication skills, and obviously, yeah, right, okay, interesting. And so, if someone sort of had said to you 10 years ago, that now you’d be speaking at global anti-scam summits and advising law enforcement, what would you have thought? What surprised you most about everything that’s happened?

Becky Holmes 5:11
In terms of what would I have thought? I would have thought, don’t be so ridiculous. And I also would have thought fraud sounds really boring. I don’t want to talk about fraud. I don’t want that career. No, thank you. That’s what I would have thought. And in terms of what has surprised me, I suppose it would be how little romance fraud was understood. Because although the second book is about fraud generally, the first book, my first love, if you like, is the sort of anti-romance fraud side. It surprised me how little media coverage it got that wasn’t just full of shame and victim blaming, and how misunderstood it was, even within the world of fraud itself. So you know, corporates and banks and stuff. There was still this shoving romance fraud to the side, and given the emotional impact on victims, I think that surprised me.

Kimberley Cole 6:10
I mean, I think what’s really fascinating, and we will dig into both of the books, but it’s just from a career perspective, the opportunities to me is that everyone kind of thinks that you can’t zigzag and you’ve got this linear approach, and yet you’ve gone from sort of PR and communications into writing books, into a new field where you’ve become this expert. I find that absolutely fantastic because I think hopefully everyone gets inspiration from that.

Becky Holmes 6:42
Well, I still can’t believe this is what I do for a living, and I still can’t believe how much I love the subject of fraud. I mean, the 20-year-old me would be hanging her head in shame at this conversation. But yeah, I suppose when I got ill and kind of gave up work, and I gave up work for almost 10 years, so a long time, and I never thought that I would feel well enough to do anything again. So the fact that I can do bits part time, but also not just that, but I’m writing, which I love, and speaking, I love doing stuff on stage. I genuinely am one of those people that I’m stood at the sidelines and I’m not nervous. I’m just really looking forward to it. So, doing the two things that I love for a living after you’ve been ill for so long, I do sort of feel like I must have done something right to deserve that.

Kimberley Cole 7:30
Exactly. And if you were to think about what’s the best advice that you’ve been given along the way, what would you say that is?

Becky Holmes 7:38
That’s easy, and it’s going to sound so cheesy, and people will go “ugh” and I can feel the eye rolling from here. But it was to be myself because I’ve got pink hair, I’ve got a lot of tattoos, I’m quite sweary, and don’t really fit the mold for a lot of counterfraud professionals. So when I go to a conference, for example, there’s a lot of very smart-looking people, and although I put, you know, a jacket on, I don’t go there in like a Nirvana t-shirt and ripped jeans. I do look a little bit different, and I originally was a little bit conscious of that because I’d had sort of comments from people bizarrely about how do you expect people to take you seriously with your hair? I mean, it’s weird, but when I confided in a few people about that, they were like, “It makes you memorable, and it makes you yourself, and don’t start to become one of the people who you’re trying to break out of the mold. So it’s been really supportive. Just that message of be yourself and don’t necessarily conform, don’t try and fit into a world that, because I’m sort of on the periphery of that world because I’m not a big technical knowledge person and I like to align myself with victims more than I guess the internal people. So it was very much about staying who I am and…

Kimberley Cole 9:01
Yeah, being authentic, which is one of the words of the moment, isn’t it?

Becky Holmes 9:05
It is, yeah. And it’s again, my 20-year-old self would be going, “Oh God, you’re so boring, but it is. It’s about just not putting a suit on every day because I don’t need to. I can do this being who I am.

Kimberley Cole 9:18
Yeah,

Becky Holmes 9:18
and that’s been really liberating for me, like really liberating.

Kimberley Cole 9:23
So I think it’s amazing from a career journey perspective, which we always love to share with all of our listeners because we’ve got a lot more emerging talent who want to see what are the opportunities, what are the different options out there. But let’s get into Keanu Reeves is not in Love with You because I mean, obviously, fantastic title. So, what was happening when you first started engaging with romance scammers? You’ve mentioned a bit, and you’re on Twitter now. X, and at what point did you realise that this was turning into something bigger than maybe just a hobby?

Becky Holmes 10:00
That point is easily identifiable in my mind. That is the time when the first victim of romance fraud messaged me on then Twitter and said, “Can I share my story with you?” And I remember ringing her, and it was the first victim that I’d spoken to, and she told me what had happened to her, and I was on the phone, and my jaw-it must have just been open. It was like a cartoon where it hit the floor. I was listening to how intricate this was, but also I was listening to the woman speaking to me, who was articulate and clearly very intelligent, and switched on, and aware of society around her, she wasn’t this little insulated, lonely woman. And that’s when I thought, hang on, there is a lot more to this than I know. And as just a normal person with no fraud experience, I thought, if this is all I know, it’ll be what most people know as well, so there is more to this.

Kimberley Cole 11:03
So you were online, and then you were targeted by scammers.

Becky Holmes 11:09
Yeah

Kimberley Cole 11:09
Tell us a bit about, so what were you doing there? Because that’s when it started. You started sharing things, and you started sort of baiting them back.

Becky Holmes 11:17
Yeah, yeah. So as I said before, I joined Twitter, and within a few days, I had the army soldiers. And to start with, I was just blocking them, deleting them, because, like I said, I could sort of tell something was going on because there were so many of them, all with the same pickup line, and some of them even with the same photos. But then, as time went on, and I got more and more bored lockdown, I then thought, well, I’ll reply to some of these guys and see what they say. And as they were coming back, and I started replying just normally, but they were coming back with exactly the same things. So then I thought, then I started replying with absolute nonsense, and they were still coming back with what was clearly a script. So this became absolutely fascinating to me, and I genuinely started saying the most ridiculous things about vegetables and having a holiday to the moon or whatever it was, and they were still going. So I started posting these up on Twitter just again for my own amusement, and it really caught on. People were finding it hysterical. It’s still my pinned tweet to this day, and it’s when a guy told me he was a pilot and he was flying to Stockholm, and I sort of said, “Right, well, we can get married there, and I’ve booked us a hotel and etc. And that is still my pinned tweet because it was at that point that overnight there were 15,000 new followers, and I thought, “Hang on! So I thought, “I’m doing something right here, and I was really enjoying making other people laugh during lockdown. So I just kept going.

Kimberley Cole 12:54
Yeah, I mean, I did read that one, and it is very, very funny.

Becky Holmes 12:59
Do you know what’s funny? Is um, I’ve actually got a friend over in Stockholm who runs a compliance business, and she arranged this sort of meetup for women in fincrime, and I did that on stage, and I used that as the main presentation because it was in Stockholm. That went down really well.

Kimberley Cole 13:16
Oh, that’s interesting. We’ve had several Risky Women meetups in Copenhagen, but we haven’t done anything in Stockholm.

Becky Holmes 13:22
Oh, I love Copenhagen. Yeah.

Kimberley Cole 13:23
Oh, I do too. It’s fantastic. So obviously, you then started speaking to victims, and you started hearing their stories. What was the victim story that you kind of, once you started doing your research, etc. for the book that really changed the way you viewed romance scams?

Becky Holmes 13:45
There was a lady I interviewed, and her story is in the Keanu Reeves book called Sue. And when we started talking, she’d been diagnosed with stage four cancer, so she was very poorly, and she told me how she’d been speaking to somebody who had told her that he had a particular job, I think it was in the army, and she’d sent him quite a lot of money, and he eventually revealed that he wasn’t. He was in Nigeria. He wasn’t who he said he was, but she continued sending him money because she felt bonded to him. And by this point, he’d worked so much on her in terms of making him feel sorry for her, all the sort of bonding that all the coercive control that she kept sending him money, and she ended up sending him about 30,000 pounds, and she said to me, “The only way that my son will ever find out is when I die and he doesn’t get any inheritance. So a few weeks later, Sue and I arranged to meet. I was going to go and interview her for the book, and I messaged her on X, and I got a message from her son to say, “Mum’s passed away. I’ve been reading your conversation. What on earth is going on?” So it was nine or 10 o’clock on a Friday night, and I had to ring this guy and tell him the whole story of her mum and this scammer. And I thought, because the reason she’d said that she hadn’t told him, she was frightened of how he was going to react. He’d be angry, etc. So I was expecting this maybe like a bit rough and ready bloke. God, he was lovely, and he said, “I’m really, really cross that my mom didn’t tell me. Not because I would have been angry with her, but because I would have been angry with the scammer, and I would have been there for her.” So it changed the way I view romance fraud because I started to see it as not just affecting the person that sends the money, but it has this real, much broader effect on family, friends. You know, I’ve spoken to victims who’ve lost all of their friends because the friends have walked away. So it affects just this ripple effect on and on, unlike a lot of frauds, you know, a lot of quick scams where people lose money, or shouldn’t say lose money. People have money stolen. Romance fraud is something much worse, much further reaching, much more cruel. And this story with Sue really changed that.

Kimberley Cole 16:21
And so, more broadly, what did you learn, or what have you learnt about human nature, both on the scammer side and on the victim side through all of this?

Becky Holmes 16:31
The scammer side, it’s hard for me to comment on because some people do feel sympathy for their situations, and I do understand why some people would feel sympathy. There are people who live in awful conditions and have few ways of making money. However, having seen and spoken to people who have been on the receiving end of this and have lost their savings, or had their savings stolen again, I should say, I’ve spoken to relatives of people who’ve taken their own lives because of this. So I probably can’t comment on the scammers themselves, their nature. But in terms of the victims, I think with human nature, I’ve seen some real resilience from the victims themselves. This real sort of right. Okay, this has happened to me. I’m now going to go out, and I’m going to do better. I’m going to do better than ever, and I’m going to show everyone. And with a lot of people, so one my closest friends is called Anna Rowe, and she runs a not-for-profit called LoveSaid, and she was a victim of romance fraud, and she now uses her platform to help people. So there’s this real strength, but I’ve also seen, and it tends to be in the media when people are reacting to media stories, this real cruelty from people who just want to make fun of people who have been defrauded, and that doesn’t make sense to me. So there’s this on one side I’ve seen this real resilience and this kindness towards others, and on the other hand, I’ve seen this cruelty and this shaming mentality.

Kimberley Cole 18:09
Yeah, because I think one of your messages is that victims are not stupid, but then you’re still seeing the fact that society doesn’t understand it. You know, thinks that those who are being scammed are just stupid, not intelligent people.

Becky Holmes 18:24
Yeah, and it’s absolute nonsense. Absolute nonsense. And you know that’s not just the case for romance fraud. That’s for any type of fraud or scam. A lot of it is through the media. A lot of the media are terrible for how they report on fraud, particularly romance fraud. They like to use phrases like gullible, naive, stupid, duped, fall for-you know these kind of phrases, which are really derogatory to the victims. And they do that. And so, not only do the journalists, some journalists, and nearly all of the sub-editors who write the titles, not only do they do that, but then the people who comment underneath, as I was saying, you kind of go to like the bar of shame, the comment section of show, are awful. So, but you know what? I’ve even spoken to people who’ve had terrible conversations with police officers, for example, who’ve been really derogatory, who just haven’t understood the crime at all, so yes, the message is that the victims aren’t stupid, but everywhere in society seems to use language that shames them.

Kimberley Cole 19:32
Yeah, exactly. So besides that, I guess myth that all the victims are stupid, are there other things that are kind of believed about romance fraud that you think are a myth as well?

Becky Holmes 19:46
I think the biggest thing for me is this stereotype of who it is. I think that also goes as far as saying that one of the stereotypes is that it’s women. Statistically, it’s 50% men and women, and I always think that’s quite interesting because this myth that it’s this kind of middle-aged woman, and then you start talking about how it’s not middle-aged women, but people still think, oh well, it’s still women. So they start thinking maybe it’s older, maybe it’s younger. They forget that 50% of the population are men. So I always think that’s quite interesting that people go straight for the woman.

Kimberley Cole 20:24
No, I do think that’s really interesting that it’s sort of 50% of people scammed in romance scams, but men as well. Yeah, but you focused on the women in the book, didn’t you?

Becky Holmes 20:34
I did, and the reason that I said that right up front is because I am one, so it’s easy for me to understand that perspective, but also because, in order to be able to write actual stories to go and interview people, it’s women that will share their stories, and this goes back to the last question: Why we all think it’s women? It’s those people who are brave enough to put their head above the parapet and say, “This is what happened to me.” The analogy I always use is like trying to get a man to go to the doctor. Unless something’s fallen off him, he doesn’t want to go. It’s the same with kind of talking to the media. You know, they’re just sort of no, no, I won’t do that. I don’t want to be seen to be weak or whatever it is. I don’t know. I’m using a stereotype now, but it is generally women who will report. So when I was writing the book. I just made a decision to do it. The other reason being, men and women are targeted quite differently when it comes to romance fraud. So, in actual fact, I only had a particular word count, and I thought if I have to go into the man thing as well, this is going to take me far too long.

Kimberley Cole 21:38
That’s interesting. That’s really interesting. Now, obviously, you make the subject sound very funny, and the way you write is hilarious. But often, the subject matter itself is quite devastating. So, how do you balance that, making it funny but not losing sight of who the victims are and the impact?

Becky Holmes 21:58
I found that quite easy, if I’m honest with you, because I write like I speak, so it’s informal. It’s quite conversational, and because I don’t think victims are stupid, there was no reason for me to make that in the book because I don’t feel it. If I don’t feel it, I don’t say it, and with the stuff that I do on Twitter, it’s always fun at the scammer’s expense, never at a victim. Because frankly, it’s not funny. There’s nothing funny about what happens to victims, but there is something I can find humor in how ridiculous some of the fraudsters that I come across are. And what I will say is that the people that I make fun of, the scammers I make fun of on X, they’re not very good ones. So it’s easy to make fun of them. And to be honest with you, when I get targeted by ones who are a lot better,

Kimberley Cole 22:55
Yeah,

Becky Holmes 22:56
I just block and delete them because I can’t get anything funny out of them.

Kimberley Cole 22:59
Right? Can you share one of your funniest interactions?

Becky Holmes 23:03
I always get asked this, and I always have to give the same answer because it is absolutely the truth. After COVID had happened and we were allowed to start seeing each other again, I started getting my friend round to be photographed doing various things for Twitter, and he came round. And at this point, he wasn’t even asking why. He was just going oh alright then, and I said, “Would you mind just lying on the floor, and I’ll put some ketchup on you, and a knife next to you?” And he went, “Oh yeah, fine.” And then a Brad Pitt got in touch with me,

Kimberley Cole 23:35
as he does, I’m sure, regularly.

Becky Holmes 23:38
He does regularly, you’d be surprised, you know. We were chatting, and I said, “I’ve done something really wrong. And he said, “Oh, what have you done? So I sent him this picture of my friend on the kitchen floor, and I said, “I’ve killed this tumble dry repairman. He came round and he didn’t have the parts that I needed, and I got really angry.” And rather than looking at the photo and saying, “What is this nonsense? He really-I mean, I have to give this guy credit. He came back and said, “Well, I know General Mark Milley.” Now, at the time, General Mark Milley was like about as high in the U.S. armed forces as you could get. He said, “And I’ll get him to get in touch with you.” And I thought, “Oh, this is brilliant. So then, I had a message from a different account saying, “I am General Mark Milley. I believe you have a problem. For 30,000 euros, I can clear that body for you.” This was amazing. This was, and I started thinking, Are they just playing along here? But they started to give me bank account details to put it into. It was absolutely incredible. I couldn’t have set it up better if I’d actually written it myself. I couldn’t have come up with that.

Kimberley Cole 24:48
That is absolutely insane. So, look, if you were thinking then about what’s one thing, I guess if we could pick just one, on how banks or law enforcement or tech companies should respond to romance fraud. What would that be?

Becky Holmes 25:05
How they should respond. You know, I speak to a lot of really good people who work within those areas that you mention, and we have the same conversations a lot. Which is that when those companies are looking at what to do about fraud? They’re looking at tech at the moment because everyone’s obsessed with AI and all the rest of it. So they’re looking at tech. How can they put friction between the fraudster and the victim using technology? Great, brilliant. We need that. But in cases of things like romance fraud, where a victim has been emotionally groomed. Technology isn’t going to cut it because they have been groomed. I know people don’t like that phrase, but that’s exactly what it is. So you can’t put technology in the way of romance fraud because if a piece of tech comes in to say, right, we’re not sending that money to Ghana or wherever it is, then the victim will contact their fraudster and say, “I can’t get it through. The bank has blocked it”, and the fraudster will say, “Don’t worry, you can pay me in crypto.” There will always be a way because of this emotional control that the fraudster has. So yes, technology is incredible. I wish I knew more about it. I’m an absolute dunce when it comes to technology, but it’s not the be all and end all. People will still have their money stolen no matter how much tech you put in place.

Kimberley Cole 26:29
Yeah, interesting. So on your next book, then, which is on the future of fraud, and that is exploring more of the like. You’ve gone bigger now. You’ve gone AI, crypto, social media, and the dark web. So you’ve mentioned AI and how that is sort of changing the scam landscape. I mean, are we heading towards a world where victims are falling in love now with bots rather than people? Like, is that the change? Or…

Becky Holmes 27:00
I think at the moment we’re seeing a lot of conversations that start off with bots, because of course AI allows a fraudster rather than sitting on his or her computer sending out individual messages. AI allows 1000s to go out at once through bots, so I think we’re starting to see more conversations starting with bots, but when somebody engages, then a real person in inverted commas takes over because at that point, to use the term catfishing, they’ve been fished, they’ve been taking the bait. So at that point, probably at the moment, I mean, some of the conversations I have, they are terrible, terrible bots, awful. So I think the savvier fraudsters, like I say, are taking these initial chats with bots and then taking them over when they’ve got that person interested as soon as someone engages.

Kimberley Cole 27:55
And look, given the rate of everything else that’s changing, what do you think about in five years from now, what will fraud look like that you think will really shock the listeners?

Becky Holmes 28:05
God, do you know what that book, The Future of Fraud? I wrote that, finished it a year ago. That’s how long it takes to get from finishing it. Then it has to go through loads of editing processes. There’s then a whole thing about it getting printed and whatever. So, I wrote that a year ago. Some of it is already out of date, and when I was asking even the biggest experts, how do you think things are going to look in so many years’ time? Nobody knows. So, when people say to me, “What’s in the future?” I have to say, obviously, AI crypto is still huge. Social media. If the social media platforms don’t start being held accountable, then we’re going to see even more of that. But the truth is, I don’t know because everything is moving quicker than we can keep up with it. That’s when I was writing the second book, The Future of Fraud. That’s the biggest learning I had. Even these incredible experts are thinking, “God, it’s moving quite quick.”

Kimberley Cole 29:06
Yeah, and I think you know we hear this all the time: is that the criminals are really good at using technology too. So you’ve got the speed at which criminals are adopting the technology, or even some of the things that they’re using, are often better than the fighters are using. So after all of the scammers and the victim stories and all the research and everything that you’ve done in this space, what gives you kind of hope?

Becky Holmes 29:34
The people that I’ve met. So the people that I’ve met who have I mentioned Anna Rowe before from LoveSaid, there are some amazing victims out there who have now built a public platform designed to raise awareness and help others. It’s the people. It’s the people who will make the difference for this. The thing that gives me hope is the people who go to work every day, and they do it for the victims. So obviously, they do it for a paycheck and the way to live and all the rest of it. But in their mind, when they go in, they know why they’re doing it, and they still think about it when they go home at night. It’s not just people who go into work, leave at half past five, and don’t think about it. What gives me hope is those people who do stuff out of office hours, and a couple of the police officers that I’ve met over here, a guy called David Gillies, who is in Essex Police, cares about victims. That’s what gives me hope.

Kimberley Cole 30:36
That’s great, and I mean I agree. I’ve heard a few things at least like some of the banks. I think it’s Santander. Like they’ve set up areas where they are yes using technology, but then calling people because often it takes people a long time to even realise or believe that they’re being scammed.

Becky Holmes 30:55
Yeah, absolutely.

Kimberley Cole 30:57
And so they have actually invested the time and money to sort of have their own teams doing that, and yeah, I agree. Cecilie from the Tinder Swindler video, she’s doing some great stuff in the space.

Becky Holmes 31:10
She is, and Anna that I mentioned, actually, they co-founded LoveSaid together.

Kimberley Cole 31:14
Ah, yes, okay, yes, exactly. So I think all of that stuff. I agree with you. That’s great that there is some hope. So it’s good to end up on some kind of positive note. So you’ve done so much, you’re, a lot going on. To wrap up – What’s next?

Becky Holmes 31:32
I don’t know. I’ve got an idea for a third book, so I need to sort of have a think about that. I need to think about getting a new literary agent. So, if I’m honest, I’m a little bit up in the air. I don’t know what I’m doing next. But I think when I went into the writing world and kind of being self-employed, that’s always going to be the risk that you don’t know what you’re doing next. But I’ve hit this real point in my career over the last few years, where I’m actually starting to think, “Oh my God, I don’t know what I’m going to do next.” So it’s half terrifying and half exciting.

Kimberley Cole 32:10
Well, hopefully we could get you along to some Risky Women events or something as well. But I have no doubt there’s going to be something amazing that comes up next, and everyone should go and buy both of the books. They are not only a bit of fun and an interesting read, but hopefully everyone also learns something and can help advocate for the victims and make a change.

Becky Holmes 32:36
Thank you so much for having me.

Kimberley Cole 32:38
Thank you, Becky. It’s been brilliant.

Becky Holmes 32:40
The time goes so quickly.

Kimberley Cole 32:42
It does, it does. But hopefully, we will get to see each other in person soon.

Becky Holmes 32:47
I would like that very much.

Kimberley Cole 32:49
Thank you to all of our listeners, and make sure you follow Becky on

Becky Holmes 32:54
@DeathtoSpinach

Kimberley Cole 32:55
At Death to Spinach!

Kimberley Cole 32:59
Thank you for listening to this episode of Risky Women Radio, be part of the ongoing conversation and learn more about our events and other programs at riskywomen.org