Podcast S8E10 | Business Leadership in Preventing Child Sexual Exploitation

TRANSCRIPT

Kimberley Cole 0:01
This is Risky Women Radio, a show that connects, celebrates and champions women in risk regulation and compliance. We’re here to share the insights on the biggest issues in our industry and hear inspiring journeys from our global members. Sign up to our newsletter at riskywomen.org. I’m Kimberley Cole, your Chief Risky Woman.

Kimberley Cole 0:24
Welcome to Risky Women Radio today we have two risky women, Jodie Arthur and Melissa Stewart. So welcome to Jodie and Melissa. And let me give you a quick intro before I let them say hello, Jodie and Melissa serve as non executive directors on the board of ICMEC Australia. And ICMEC stands for the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children. ICMEC is an independent not for profit organization combating online child sexual exploitation and abuse. They collaborate with stakeholders like financial services and corporate entities, law enforcement and others, to develop strategies to protect children from harm. Jodi is the general manager of financial crime at Westpac and the group mlro, based in Melbourne, Australia. She is skilled in financial crime compliance, AML, CTF, financial risk, enterprise risk management, internal audit and operational risk management. And Melissa is recognized as an industry expert in modern day slavery, business and human rights and responsible investment. For more than 24 years, she has held senior advisory roles and full time positions globally with the United Nations, Australian and international governments ASX listed companies, and not for profits. So this is great to have you both on board. We actually had Bindu Sharma, also from ICMEC, who leads the policy and advocacy and research and I would urge everyone to listen to in S7E6, that recording that we did there with Bindu as well. But first, let me say welcome.

Jodie Arthur 2:09
Thank you, Kimberley. It’s great to be on.

Melissa Stewart 2:11
Yes. Thanks so much, Kimberley.

Kimberley Cole 2:13
Great, thank you guys. Now I gave a very quick overview of your sort of background. Can I have you both share, what are your current roles and NGO roles, because you’ve got a mix of responsibilities going on here. So maybe you’ll start with Jodie. Do you want to kick us off?

Jodie Arthur 2:31
Yeah, sure. Thanks. Kimberley, so as you said, I am the MLRO at Westpac bank, which is money laundering reporting officer and the general manager of financial crime, I have been in this space for about 16 and a half years, and I often call myself the accidental professional in FinCrime, because it was one of those sliding door moments where someone said to me, Hey, do you want to pick this up in your portfolio? a long time ago. And I said, this sounds really interesting. Yes, I do. And so I’ve been in banking for 20 plus years, and I worked in multiple different divisions, but I predominantly worked across the second and third line. So when I picked up FinCrime, I found it incredibly fascinating subject. It was primarily money laundering back then, and then it morphed into sanctions and Anti Bribery and corruption tax transparency and fraud and scams, which is something that I think we all talk about on a daily basis. And I’ve just had some, you know, amazing opportunities through the FinCrime space to learn and hone my craft, but also be connected with some incredible individuals that really know this space on a global level. So I had the opportunity to move with my role. So I’ve worked overseas, in Singapore, and I’ve had regional roles where I’ve had exposure to multiple jurisdictions, and of course, modern slavery, human trafficking and child sexual exploitation have been really key topics that have been pervasive in my field since inception of coming into the FinCrime space.

Kimberley Cole 4:02
Thank you. That’s a great career. We love to share those stories and give some inspiration to our up and coming risky women. So it’s wonderful to hear. And Melissa, you’ve also had a fascinating career. So tell us more about your journey.

Melissa Stewart 4:18
Sure, and mine is not a linear journey, and there were a lot of sliding doors in my path. I was always concerned and passionate about social justice, so I studied international development, and then I went on to do a law degree and got called as a lawyer in Canada. And then was very interested in environmental law at the time, and was given an opportunity to go to the United Nations headquarters in Bangkok, Thailand to work on a regional environmental law program. To make a very long story short, once I got there, it was very evident that environmental issues were not near the top of priority of Southeast Asian Nations at the time, and that human rights, and particularly human trafficking, had just emerged as a critical, compelling issue that a lot of the international donors were very interested in dealing with. It was around the same time as the negotiations around the Human Trafficking Protocol were happening over in Geneva, and so I was very lucky to get immersed amongst a small group who were doing the thinking and thought leadership around what it meant, the conceptual clarity around what human trafficking was defined as, but then how to address it in prevention protection, and then in policy and prosecution. So I stayed at the UN for a number of years, and based in that region, again, was very lucky to work with a range of stakeholders, both there and globally. And then it was at that time that I realized that other stakeholders were coming into the forefront, especially the corporate sector, trying to think of how they could be involved in the issue, as well as a important critical aspect of the response to modern slavery. I took on a role at World Vision Australia as the head of their human trafficking and child protection response, and was able to take learnings from the field to then advocate for changes within the Australian Government, but then also to act as a critical friend to corporates in Australia at the time who were at their nascent stages of developing human rights policies and work around engaging stakeholders NGOs around these types of issues. After the Modern Slavery Act was passed in Australia, which was one of the things we’d been advocating around, I started my own consulting firm, so I worked with the Australian Government on some of the regional initiatives, and then with corporates to develop their own strategy around modern slavery. And then eventually, and more recently and increasingly, with investors and superannuation funds. So I joined the board with ICMEC quite recently, but I had worked with some of the members of the team in my previous role at World Vision, when we did some programs around this specific issue.

Kimberley Cole 7:18
Really, really interesting careers. So maybe Melissa, back to you on the role of ICMEC. So you both sit on the board. How does ICMEC operate? Because obviously you’re bringing in industry experts that are involved in this.

Melissa Stewart 7:34
Sure I can tell you where we are now is very much focused on filling a gap in the space child protection space within Australia, we’re not here to recreate the wheel, and there’s a number of different advocacy groups who have worked very tirelessly and passionately around the issue. ICMEC’s more focused around the intersections with how the financial community and other businesses can interact as stakeholders in the response to child exploitation. It’s to support law enforcement and other child protection professionals to do their job better and to detect and prosecute offenders, and then to demonstrate thought leadership on niche issues and provide technical solutions to some of these financial institutions and other corporate players to actually use their leverage to actually track and prosecute offenders.

Jodie Arthur 8:33
I would just add on to that, and I’ve been on the board for going on about two and a half years. So I joined ICMEC earlier in 2023 and have been actually very grateful to have the opportunity to serve as a non executive director in a company that’s in a not for profit that’s really trying to make the most of its opportunity and platform, and as an independent not for profit, it collaborates with a various degree of stakeholders, and Melissa’s sort of pointed that out, but particularly financial services, law enforcement, policy makers, academics, regulators, other NGOs It plays a really niche and important role in online child sexual exploitation identification and prevention, and so Westpac has had a journey with ICMEC for a couple of years, it was part of our Safer Children and Safer Community program, and that is how I’ve been able to connect in with ICMEC, learn more about them, but also be able to provide that financial services lens from a director perspective.

Kimberley Cole 9:36
Excellent. So before we kind of dig into all of that a bit further, I guess, from a career perspective, what was the sort of light bulb moment or something that made your choices that you’ve made through your journeys?

Jodie Arthur 9:52
I don’t mind kicking off. Well actually, mine goes back years, and it’s non specific to sort of the space I’m in now. But we had a family business, and I think that I just assumed I would join the family business. It was insurance risk, and my dad said, No, I don’t want you to do that. So it was really a sliding door moment where I went, Oh crap, what am I going to do? And I jumped into a few different spaces. So I actually have a dual degree in business management and hotel catering management. So I’ve moved through a couple of different industries before I settled in financial services, and since, I’ve been, you know, pretty financial services since started 2004 and I haven’t moved out, which has been great, but financial services have enabled me to have a lot of different opportunities. Definitely not insurance! As I had originally thought that trajectory would be but it’s been an amazing journey. And I think in this space, in particular, working in financial services and working in this space, I often say to people that I learn something every day. So I’m constantly on a learning journey, whether that’s working through ICMEC, connecting in with people like Melissa, the director level, or just working with other people in industry, regulators, law enforcement, and just seeing some of the things that come across our desk. So it’s it’s humbling, but it’s also incredibly interesting and rewarding.

Melissa Stewart 11:13
To answer your question. It’s really interesting whenever I speak, or particularly when I used to speak at World Vision events, and there would always be interested and passionate university students or young people interested in getting involved in this field of work. I generally gave them the same advice, saying you can’t just go into this field. You have to be able to contribute something. And everyone felt driven to go and work in Southeast Asia and work in a shelter or to work with survivors of trafficking, and it made me realize that I needed to act as a mentor, because I didn’t have that mentor. I was very lucky that I happened to be the right place in the right time, concerned about social justice when change was happening. But like I said to some of the younger people, go and cut your teeth on the ground in the field, getting experience actually delivering a program, but only if you have a skill to give, whether that be in law or in community development or social work. Learn a different language. You can’t go and work places and work with survivors unless you’re actually speaking the language or just stay at home and do the same type of work here. But to really ground themselves, I saw the impact of that lesson a few years ago when I was at a conference at the UN in Geneva, and this beautiful young woman came up to me and said, you probably don’t remember me. And she said I was one of those young women in the audience who didn’t know what to do, and then I went back to school and got my law degree, and now I’m running a program with the International Organization of Migration, and it’s been so rewarding. But when I reflect back, I’ve always had an intellectual curiosity about different points of view around an issue, and if I reflect and again, this wasn’t by design, but I moved from law firm to UN to NGO to business to investor, and they all played their different roles and having different levers of power and leverage around the issue. So I would also advise anyone listening to try and get your feet wet and in a number of different industries around an issue that you care about.

Kimberley Cole 13:21
I think that’s great, and I know that it’s one of the things that people love hearing, is that career journey and how people ended up where they are. So that’s really interesting.

Kimberley Cole 13:33
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Kimberley Cole 13:52
So now let’s get stuck into our topic of the day, which is really around the business leadership in preventing child sexual exploitation. And I think that’s what’s really key here. And as we were talking earlier about some of the work that I had done previously with Thomson Reuters, was we really tried to bring together all of our financial institutions, our corporates, all of the people who were our financial markets customers, to talk about some of these issues and to come up with solutions. So I’m really excited to hear more about all of the work that you and ICMEC are doing today. So I guess from each of your perspectives here on financial crime and modern day slavery, how does child sexual exploitation intersect with financial services, and then why should businesses view this as a critical risk rather than a peripheral issue? So who wants to start with that one? Maybe you, Jodie?

Jodie Arthur 14:52
Yeah, I’m happy to kick off. Kimberly, I think it’s definitely not a peripheral issue, that’s for sure, and it’s actually asystemic issue in our society. At a global level, it really is so material, I think, that from a financial services perspective, we’ve got this opportunity to try and understand what’s happening in the financial sector and how our products and services, unfortunately, are being misused to facilitate these types of crimes, and that’s what happens. And often these are bad actors at global levels. Certainly, when I moved from Singapore and came back into Australia in 2020, and I was doing some work with the bank, we’d had some public issues around this space. I think there’s no financial institution in Australia that wouldn’t take this seriously, this typology, and from a banking perspective, we’ve certainly sought out institutions like ICMEC to really understand it and work out how we manage it. So how do we detect it in our channels and our products and with our services? What looks unusual, suspicious, anomalous, and how do we do that at a more sophisticated level? So it’s not just those one to ones, but we’re also understanding and able to provide really meaningful intelligence through to our regulators and law enforcement, because that sort of the critical role we play is understanding who’s doing what with our products and services, and then being able to provide insightful and meaningful intelligence into the areas that it needs to reach. So something can be done and some prosecution can be made. So both of them are very significant human harm typologies that I would be pressed that any financial institution didn’t take seriously and had as material detection typologies for their institutions.

Kimberley Cole 14:52
And I guess across ICMEC, you have a lot of collaboration across financial institutions, correct?

Jodie Arthur 16:51
Yeah, we do. So we have brown bag opportunities where ICMEC may come and speak in some of the areas of specialization that they have, which is wonderful, or we might cross collaborate on that. So we will talk to the industry about some of the things that we’re learning in this space, some of the things that we’re detecting. I often say to my bank counterparts, there is no competitive edge in fighting financial crime, and it’s so critical that as we learn that we’re able to share some of that in the safe way that we can, particularly around typologies and what we learn about typologies. So micro laundering is an area that has become quite prevalent over the last couple of years, and that’s really hard to detect because micro laundering is low value, high volume, and typically topologies, rule based typologies make it very difficult to detect that type of thing. So moving into the more behavioral dynamic monitoring is actually really key for financial services to genuinely have an impact and be able to do something in this space.

Kimberley Cole 17:50
Yeah, I think it’s that collective action, isn’t it? Because you’re competing against…

Jodie Arthur 17:56
It absolutely is. Yeah, because if they’re not using our institution, they will be somewhere else, and that’s just a bet.

Kimberley Cole 18:03
And Melissa, from your perspective and the lens that you put on this…

Melissa Stewart 18:07
Well, just to follow on the point that Jodie aptly made, we used to call it push down pop up syndrome. And if only one organization is pushing down on an issue and really driving home some strong policy and governance, it will go to the weaker link. So that’s why it has to be a collaborative engagement across all financial institutions. So I think that was a really good point. From my perspective, one is on an issue front, and then one’s on a legislation front, I guess. And on the issue front, child exploitation and modern slavery are so inextricably linked in the fact that children who are exploited are also victims of human trafficking, but could be involved in forced labor or have other forms of control and exploitation that occur, not just on the online space, but offline as well, in an abusive environment, and the definition more broadly of modern slavery encompasses all forms of this type of exploitation around children. So modern slavery is an umbrella term for the most part. There’s a lot of crime types that sit under it. So they all weave together, but in a lot of jurisdictions, including the UK and Australia and increasingly around the world, there’s now regulation to report on what a company is doing around modern slavery, and that includes what they’re doing around child exploitation. And not all companies have made that connection. They treat them as very separate issues, and maybe the child exploitation piece sits within financial crime, but it isn’t embedded cross functionally across all the other units. And this legislation requires companies to report on what they’re doing in their own operations, their supply chains and their investments. And to date, most companies have focused on the supply chain piece. Which is important. But I think when it comes to child exploitation, it’s more important than the other two aspects, and that’s, how are your own employees Code of Conduct being, what is the policy around that? Is there very clear values of the organization around what would happen if there was any risk within an employee or contractor space. Secondly, in the investment space around human rights due diligence, and this applies to supply chains as well, but are any investments being made that would support any technologies or any sort of activity that would make these crime types more prevalent? And that could be within the technology sector, that could be within the various forms of payment sectors, and so it needs to be reported on. In the European space and potentially here in Australia, there may be mandatory human rights due diligence called for. And if that’s the case, I think part of the work that people do will be to advocate for making sure that child sexual exploitation and harm is it falls under the modern slavery and human rights space as much. So this is both an S issue in ESG and a G issue, which I think often get overlooked.

Kimberley Cole 21:14
Yeah, that’s really good. Yeah, I think often you’re right. They get talked about separately, but that’s good to talk about how they’re connected. And Jodie from your perspective, often, I think what we’re talking about here is the actions that are being taken. We really have moved beyond this being just a box ticking exercise, and really looking to integrate the management around these issues into your governance and your risk frameworks. How have organizations already started to do that? Or what are those kind of things that are happening?

Jodie Arthur 21:48
Yeah, child exploitation, modern slavery, human trafficking needs to be addressed at an enterprise level. And I think Melissa, you’ve made really good points about the fact that they intersect so heavily. But there’s also the ESG side of it, which is incredibly important. I think understanding it is key. And not just the FinCrime team or the ESG team, but having an enterprise understanding of what it is and the harm that can be caused from your institution as a result of supply chains, products, channels, etc. I think certainly the financial services space, one of the areas that we’ve been particularly focused on is compliance by design. So when we’re thinking about our products and services and the channels that they’re sitting on, how do we ensure, given that we understand risks emanate, that we’re able to put controls in place that prevent rather than us just detecting which we see as critical. And so compliance by design has been something that Westpac has been following for a couple of years now, and it also gives the business an understanding of what happens, because often you’ve got people in the business that working away, looking at how they make their product or service the best it can be, as effective as it can be, don’t understand the risks that actually may be transpiring across those parts of the sector. So I think that certainly there’s been a lot of awareness globally, and particularly in Australia, I would say, the last five or six years specifically on this issue, having not for profits like ICMEC are also very useful because they bring people together. We touched on that earlier about that cross collaboration and having them reach out and bring participants in from whether it’s public sector, whether it’s private sector, banks do engage with law enforcement too, so we learn from them, but they also learn from us in terms of some of the things that we see and some of the reporting that we provide. So it’s really a two way street, and I think it’s a constant journey of understanding how it evolves, because the typologies around these particular crimes are really difficult to detect, sometimes, but pervasive in our society, they’re sitting there under the surface, and once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

Jodie Arthur 24:08
Absolutely. And I think we mentioned ESG a couple of times there, so Melissa, love to get your thoughts on obviously this should be part of the ESG framework, and how can teams ensure that it is part of that governance priority and not just a one off initiative?

Melissa Stewart 24:27
I think with the advance of more regulation, I think that companies are going to start taking ESG more seriously. I think generally, as I’ve said before, S has been the weakest link of ESG reporting and an uplift of S in general, but maybe even through the lens of governance focus, will help raise this issue. As Jodie correctly said, this risk type has to be across the core governance risk and operations management and across everything. And I think when we speak to those in the C suite or those in enterprise risk, we really need to highlight the different types. I mean, this is there are ethical and moral obligations that I think once people become aware of, it’s hard to unsee. As Jodie just said, I think that with more education, we realize how much closer this issue is to everybody that with technology, with smartphones, with teenagers and children on applications, that this is becoming more real to the everyday person, rather than something that happens elsewhere, even though the more egregious forms may not be as evident to people. But I think understanding that while there are moral and ethical reasons to do this, there’s a social license that the community expects our corporates and financial institutions to be managing this risk, that there’s reputational risk with some pretty severe potential financial fines that can be involved in this. But there’s also a criminal risk. I often find that that gets overlooked, especially in the modern slavery piece, but particularly in this piece, this is criminal behavior that a company can be accountable for. So I think there are litigation risks, there’s criminal risk. There’s all sorts of economic risks that make it important to be embedded, and not just as a outside strategic risk. It has to be really embedded into the risk framework. So it starts by making that risk visible. And I’d say, as Jodi said, people need to understand, and I think the power of story is really important. I think at ICMEC, we’re really lucky to work very closely with law enforcement who day in day out, can tell you how pervasive this issue is across Australia and the effect it has on children overseas as well in our neighborhood. I think once people become attuned to the prevalence, it’s hard to not want to contribute to doing something about it, especially when you have…

Jodie Arthur 27:01

Kimberley Cole 27:47
Yeah, and obviously, a lot of financial professionals now and through initiatives like this, are really at the forefront of detecting and disrupting this child sexual exploitation and the networks that are built up to do this. Can you share some best practices around what’s happening? Because I think you know that would be really interesting to hear.

Jodie Arthur 28:10
Yeah, well, knowing your content, we sort of touched on a little bit of this earlier, is working with law enforcement, NGOs, our regulator, and understanding how the typologies morphing and changing. I think it’s been fascinating over the last five or six years, as I’ve been closer to this topic, the way it’s changed, and keeping abreast of how it’s changing. So it’s one thing for us to have our monitoring in place, but that’s after the fact. So if we don’t engage as a collective. So our public private sector partnership with our regulator AUSTRAC, via the Fintel Alliance is critical in that, but also ensuring that we’ve got visibility on other things that are occurring through the likes of ICMEC has been critical enablers for us to think about how we might manage detection, but also think about behavioral elements, as well as some of those more traditional methods that banks have typically used to determine whether we think someone’s more likely to offend and utilize our products and services in that type of manner. So I think I’m probably at the nice junction now where I can talk about ICMEC working on a pioneering product, and this is one a number of the large banks here in Australia, the majors, have been supporting ICMEC with but it really is trying to position Australia’s financial services sector at the forefront of global efforts to detect and disrupt child sexual exploitation. So the product is called Lighthouse, and it’s been developed with leading data partners which are committed to child protection. And so what Lighthouse is essentially trying to do is it’s trying to transform millions of global data attributes and artifacts into localized user ready product tailored for banks to ingest so we can know more. So there’s information in there that we just wouldn’t be able to see. And I think it was Melissa you were mentioning earlier that pop up, pop down. We call it whack a mole, where, if they’re not someplace, they’ll be somewhere else. And having access to data and understanding the typology and utilizing that data, and I sort of reference the behavioral monitoring, is really powerful. So some of that enables our best practice in terms of trying to identify, I think another thing that’s been very useful at a more perhaps micro level has been training and awareness and bringing people in from law enforcement and other areas of subject matter expertise on these particular topics to train and provide awareness to our staff, and we had Kids HelpLine in about two years ago to talk about some of the things that they see here and identify when a child may be vulnerable, which is incredibly powerful for our analysts. Because I guess the other thing to remember too is that we’ve got analysts on the other side of it, potentially seeing it and thinking, what do I do with this, and how do I get a response quickly and protect that child? And that’s really difficult.

Kimberley Cole 31:10
Well, I mean, it’s great to hear the actions that are being taken, that collaboration and that, you know, really things are moving forward. So I guess if we’re going to wrap it up, what is the one thing? Or you can do more than one if you want! Three things! To narrow it to one is going to be hard. But what would you want GRC professionals who are listening to this podcast to do differently in their fight against child sexual exploitation after sort of hearing this discussion, so I don’t know one or three, I’m up to you because I’m sure you’ve got lots that you could give. Melissa…

Melissa Stewart 31:51
I’ll start, and I’m going to answer a little bit on the previous question just quickly, because it might fall under one of my pieces of advice. But I think that when you’re looking at human rights impact assessments or ESG impact assessments, really strategically making an impact on children, and that’s in relation to the products and services that a financial institution or other institution is delivering, but also in its investments and its supply chain as well. I think that even the inclusion of the impact on children as a term is really important, and then working closely with tech companies on the prevention side, on safety by design, and ICMEC does have a wonderful coalition of technology companies that it works with to collaboratively talk about these issues in a pre competitive way, and I think that’s been really valuable. And if we’re going to make change, it has to be in collaboration with these sectors. To answer your question about my thoughts, my bullet points: I think everybody, no matter where you sit in an organization, can use whatever leverage and power they have in their role to make a change somewhere in their delivery of their work. I would ask people to reflect on what they could do to improve their role, whether it be in risk, whether it be in a different part of the organization, but how a small change could impact delivery around this. Something I do with my private work, I have been thinking a lot about how the investment community can work on this issue too, and we know that investors provide a lot of leverage on this issue to financial institutions and to other business sectors, so know that they’re watching. So note, to keep on the forefront of this, it’s good to think about how you’ll be dealing with this, because investors will be asking. And then, on a personal level, how as individuals, we can deal with this in our own lives, maybe through our own investments and through our engagements with the companies we deal with on a regular basis, and how much we’d like to know about how they’re working to prevent this issue.

Kimberley Cole 34:11
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that’s right. Everyone can make a difference. So yeah, think about what you can bring to the table. Is a great one. And Jodie, what was be your kind of focus?

Jodie Arthur 34:25
Melissa has summed that up really nicely, but awareness is key. People need to be aware. You can’t make change if you’re not aware. And I think also ensuring too, that even on a personal level, that you know those with kids or with children that are part of their family. Are they okay? Are they aware of some of these issues? I think one of the things that was really powerful for me a couple of years ago as I dived into this particular area was educating my kids on some of the risks associated with online platforms and being vulnerable to those that want to take advantage of them inadvertently, and so that has been a bit of a mission of mine to ensure that there is a broad education and understanding and that if something happens, it’s okay, talk about it, escalate it, and make sure provide your children with a safe space to talk about it and resolve it. Problem shared is a problem halved. So I don’t mean to make light of it, but I really think that often in the worst situations, it’s because children are too frightened to talk about the circumstances that they may have found themselves. But certainly awareness across you know, at a broader level, at a corporate level, awareness is key, because you need to ensure that you understand the risk to be able to do something about it.

Melissa Stewart 35:41
Very wise words.

Kimberley Cole 35:42
Absolutely such an important topic. As I said, we had Bindu Sharma also on from ICMEC. I would recommend everyone listen to in Series Seven, Episode Six, but hopefully this podcast also gives a little bit further awareness, some education. I think it’s really good to be hearing the collective actions and the collaboration across industry, law enforcement and the broader community to look for the solutions. And I think, as Melissa said, we can all make small changes that could also help in this space. So I want to thank you both for your joining us today on Risky Women Radio. And it’s been fabulous to hear the actions and the work of ICMEC Australia. So thank you.

Jodie Arthur 35:42
Thank you, Kimberley. It’s been delightful.

Melissa Stewart 36:06
Thank you so much. Kimberley. I also want to say if any of the listeners are interested in learning more about how ICMEC might be able to support your own organization, please do reach out to us at ICMEC Australia, and we’d be really happy to support you.

Kimberley Cole 36:55
Excellent. We’ll make sure that we put some details in the show notes so that people know how to contact ICMEC, but thank you for joining us, and thank you very much to all of our listeners.

Jodie Arthur 37:05
Thanks Kimberley.

Melissa Stewart 37:06
Thank you.

Kimberley Cole 37:13
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