Podcast S8E8 | Evolving Nature of Corporate Fraud: Zoë Newman

TRANSCRIPT

Kimberley Cole 0:01
This is Risky Women Radio, a show that connects, celebrates and champions women in risk regulation and compliance. We’re here to share the insights on the biggest issues in our industry and hear inspiring journeys from our global members. Sign up to our newsletter at riskywomen.org. I’m Kimberley Cole, your Chief Risky Woman.

Kimberley Cole 0:23
Welcome to Risky Women Radio today’s risky woman is Zoë Newman. Zoë is the regional Managing Director and the global co-head of the financial investigations practice at Kroll, and she is based in London. Zoë leverages over 20 years of experience working across Eastern Europe, Central Asia and the Middle East, and has numerous international cross border investigations. These investigations required the tracing of complex fund flows, dissection of corporate structures, and the assessment of the integrity of transactions to support both civil and criminal asset recovery proceedings and disclosures to regulators. So it’s a fascinating area, but before we get stuck into understanding a bit more on the evolving nature of corporate fraud, welcome, Zoë.

Zoë Newman 1:14
Thank you so much. Great to be here.

Kimberley Cole 1:16
Great to have you, and I would like actually to hear a bit more about your career journey, because I think it’s one of the things that people really enjoy about the podcast, is hearing all these different ways that people have sort of navigated their way through or found their way into their role, and what those highlights have been along the way.

Zoë Newman 1:37
So my career journey is quite a simple one, because I have, unusually, spent all my working life at Kroll.

Kimberley Cole 1:43
Ah, excellent!

Zoë Newman 1:45
Yeah, in the very old school way, I applied via an ad in the Financial Times 25 years ago, and here I am now. So the Kroll I joined 25 years ago was much more of an intelligence focused firm where we dealt, obviously, in investigations, but very much leveraging external, hard to find information for companies. And I joined as an analyst, doing that investigative research work. Loved it. Didn’t realize you could do this sort of work in the private sector, and then have worked my way through. I did economics and law at university. When I was a sort of junior case manager in my late 20s, I realized that sort of the, I guess, the rebirth of the FCPA Foreign Corrupt Practices Act was coming to fruition again and a lot more enforcement. And I realized the importance of having a financial qualification so trained as an accountant, very much a forensic investigative accountant, as opposed to a books and records balance sheet management accountant. And that was really timely, because it was at the same time that Kroll’s work evolved much more into the internal as well as the external world of investigations. So as a result, you know, a lot of my experience over the past 15 or so years, has been working on internal investigations in relation to Corruption, fraud, money laundering, and the reason why I’ve enjoyed it so much is we’re very heavily emerging developing market focused, so a lot of the work that I do tends to be in jurisdictions where you wouldn’t necessarily go to in your normal course of holidaying. So I’ve met some fascinating people and clients in those jurisdictions, and here I still am today. So must be doing something right!

Kimberley Cole 3:32
Fantastic. And so your role now you’re the regional managing director and the global co-head of the financial investigation practice, and tell us more about your role and I guess you’re running an entire team?

Zoë Newman 3:45
Sure. So I look after, you know, we have four regions, as you’d expect. I look after Europe, Middle East and Africa. So my role is very much around running those teams and the different offices, which are more than capable individuals in them, but making sure that we’re cohesively connected from a go to market perspective. Where our big differentiator is where our people are physically located, is not necessarily reflective of where we do our work. So you know, as I said, we’re very emerging developing market focused, so we coordinate a lot of our work around the driving of business development and client related activity in Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Africa, and work very cohesively as a region in various initiatives. So at the moment, we are seeing a big growth in the gaming sector. So we’re working cross border, across that. We’re increasingly doing a lot more around family offices and helping them with the issues that they face, because they tend to be further down the governance and compliance curve in terms of maturity. So a lot of my work is around knitting everybody together and making sure that we have a an EMEA strategy, not an office specific strategy. And then, you know, I love case work, and would hate to stop doing case work and only focus on management. So from the financial investigation side, a lot of our work is on big ticket, high profile investigations, where I still sort of roll my sleeves up and provide very much of the strategic input into approach, the client advice around those financial investigations

Kimberley Cole 5:20
Really interesting. And obviously a lot of these challenges are really, really important to firms and the customers that you deal with. How do you create impact in your role?

Zoë Newman 5:32
A former colleague once said to me a long time ago, a lot of our role is common sense based, uncommon experience. And I think that was particularly true when I was younger, because I joined the firm at a very young age, I became quite senior at what felt like a young age, and it’s quite difficult sometimes, particularly as a female, when you’re talking to ministers in jurisdictions or CEOs or chairmen, to think, well, how are they going to take me seriously? And I always remember that piece of advice, because actually, when there’s a big fraud, or when there’s a whistleblower alleging corruption, or we’ve stolen your data, or we’ve got a team walking out of a firm, and they’re taking all of it with us, we sort of instinctivly know what to do, because it’s our every day. And you forget sometimes that that’s not obvious to me. It feels obvious what the next step should be. But I think we see nowadays, with lots of the big headlines around the different things nowadays that impact corporates, that there’s always been fraud, corruption has become a much more important issue, obviously, but the whole Me Too Movement, allegations of bullying harassment that can really impact the reputation of corporates and just big scale frauds and the panic that can ensue amongst management and missteps that they can make at the outset. So I think a lot of our role is to be the calm one and provide guidance, but also to be able to provide clients with insight in markets that they are not comfortable with. I mean, I’m not a linguist, unfortunately, I wish I was, but the majority of my colleagues speak multiple languages. They’re regional specialists, and you cannot go in as a Western corporate into a lot of jurisdictions with your eyes wide shut, you’ll come unstuck straight away and not understand the nuances of how you investigate legally in those jurisdictions. So also, a lot of our work is around advice and hand holding in markets where they’re less comfortable. But I would also say a big change over the past seven to ten years, but more the past five to seven, is the growth of compliance. It used to be really hard to proactively get clients engaged on the importance of compliance. I think obviously in the financial services sector, it’s a different story. But corporate compliance, you know, to get firms to proactively conduct a fraud risk assessment, bribery and corruption sanctions risk assessment, almost impossible. Now that’s completely changed, and I think what we’re seeing as well, is a lot of the big conglomerates working in emerging developing markets who are wanting to transact with the US, elsewhere, they’re also realizing that they need to have such systems in place. So a lot of it, again, is hand holding those clients in what’s necessary and how to implement such a compliance program. I do think, as well, with the Russia Ukraine war, sanctions used to not be something that corporates worried about beyond a quick and dirty World Check. Now there’s so much attention paid to sanctions and proactive awareness of what corporates do and don’t know and what they need to do to remediate deficiencies in the sanctions space that’s completely changed compared to it always used to be in the sphere of financial services.

Kimberley Cole 9:07
So I think we’ll come on to some of those topics a bit more in terms of, what are those trends, what are the things that corporates should be looking at? But I guess it’s interesting, we ask a lot of participants, what’s the biggest risks that they’ve taken in their career, and a lot of them are saying, Oh, well, I left this firm and I joined another one, or I changed countries or whatever. What’s the biggest risk that you think you’ve taken?

Zoë Newman 9:29
Staying put probably! There’s lots of opportunities that come to us in our careers. And one piece of advice I always say to people in the team is you should always go and have the conversation. It does no harm whatsoever, but sometimes it has the benefit of you realizing that the grass isn’t greener, and you realizing that actually you’re in a pretty good space where you are. Everybody has bumps along the road. But actually, the few occasions when I’ve come close to the line, I’m always very glad, with hindsight, that I’ve stayed because having fun in what we do is key, because it can be pressured, it can be stressful. You don’t ever really switch off, apart from on maternity leave. I think that was my one time I had holidays where I wasn’t concerned about my emails, because you’ve got to be available, and sometimes that can be tiring, particularly as you go through your life and the different stages of it, traveling each and every week was amazing fun in my 20s, not so much by the time I was in my late 30s and 40s now, but the work that we do and the people that I do that work with have always kept me at the firm, and I think also the firm has evolved completely into a big professional services organization that is known as a specialist in what it does. So I would say lots of people have questioned me over the years. Why have you stayed? Oh, you really ought to go here, there and everywhere, whereas actually it’s paid off. You know, sometimes being loyal pays off, and sometimes sort of believing in the people around you. But I think a lot of that, again, has to do with trust. And I’ve learned that a lot myself, trust and loyalty have meant a lot to me in my colleagues, and therefore it’s important that you invoke that in the team around you at the same time.

Kimberley Cole 11:25
I agree, as someone that stayed at Thomson Reuters for 28 and a half years, I consider myself a fairly loyal, a loyal person. And I met many of the team, or maybe just a little subset of the team, the other week, and you’ve obviously got such a breadth of different skills and knowledge across so many different areas, that makes it fascinating as well. So really interesting all of the different people there who could talk to, you know, cyber, and we were having conversations about crypto and AI, and, you know, you’ve got so many different dimensions that obviously your customers are interested in, but obviously the firm has specialists in which I thought was fantastic. And one more, just career question, but what’s the kind of light bulb moment or something that you feel is really shaped your career because you’ve talked that you’re really passionate about the casework and bringing together different skills? Are there, is there something else that was sort of that light bulb moment?

Zoë Newman 12:22
If I can answer that question at a very basic level, the absolutely honest Zoë answer is not being frightened to ask a dumb question, because we have to be parachuted in to companies that operate in sectors that, frankly, I didn’t even know existed at the time that we arrive. But people often ask me the question, you know, what are your sector specialisms? How do you work across sectors at Kroll? Actually, in investigations, we very deliberately don’t, because our job as fraud specialists, corruption specialists, sanction evasion specialists, is to be able to look helicopter wise at an organization and think, put yourselves in the shoes of a wrongdoer and figure, if I was them, what are the weaknesses that I would manipulate to commit fraud or corruption? But you’re only gonna be able to do that if you can very quickly understand the business that you’re operating in. And I’ve seen over the years, people nod and say yes, yes, yes. And my mum always taught me like there is no dumb question, and if you ask the dumb question, you’ll realize how many other people weren’t aware of the answer. And the moment I stopped being worried about looking stupid and just said, maybe it’s me, and realized nobody’s going to be cross with you. Nobody’s going to think you’re an idiot. It’s perfectly fine. And actually, you can massage egos quite a lot by admitting to people that what they do is complicated and that you need some help understanding it. So that was a light bulb moment for me. It gave me confidence, particularly because you need to be confident, because we’re on site a lot of the time in quite difficult situations, you can’t faff and leave and have not really understood what the issue is.

Kimberley Cole 14:12
No, I think that’s really great learning then that everyone should take away.

Zoë Newman 14:16
I wish I had a more scientific point to make!

Kimberley Cole 14:21
No I think that’s perfect.

Kimberley Cole 14:23
This episode is brought to you by Kroll. Stay ahead with Kroll as the leading independent provider of financial and Risk Advisory solutions. Kroll leverages their unique insights, data and technology to help clients stay ahead of complex demands.

Kimberley Cole 14:42
Let’s get into the evolving nature of corporate fraud, because obviously it’s a big space, so you’ve sort of started to talk a little bit about this. But how are you seeing the nature of corporate fraud evolve? So you mentioned compliance, for example. But obviously, obviously we’ve now got more technology. Criminal networks are really targeting employees of global corporates, where we’ve seen other ways, where they’re getting in and the employees are becoming almost unwitting co-conspirators in some kinds of fraud, etc. So how are you seeing the corporate fraud evolve, and how is that looking?

Zoë Newman 15:24
We always used to talk about the insider threat in corporate fraud, and that still happens. Of course it does. And for practically all of 2021 and 2022 all anybody asked was, when’s the big fraud wave going to come as a result of COVID. And the answer is, some of that is coming now, particularly around deals where perhaps misrepresentations were made at the point when people couldn’t really get into companies and deals were taking place. So the insider threat is still there, but it’s not there to the same magnitude as what I would call the external threat, and that is organized crime. And what we’ve seen, I mean, frankly, it started 10 years ago, and it’s in terms of a curve gone vertical very quickly. That is in the sense of organized crime has become so organized, it behaves like the nimblest, most, AI driven, tech driven company out there, and it is targeting corporates in their 1000s, day after day after day after day all around the world, and they only need a 1% success rate, and they’re all billionaires. You know, just within the Kroll sphere, we have easily seen a billion dollars stolen out of companies through organized crime, and some of that is cyber attacks. You know, we’ve all read about in the papers, and are ongoing at the moment, but an amazing amount of it is good old social engineering of foreign subsidiaries of international corporates, where the head of finance in that foreign subsidiary answers the phone to the CEO joins a video call with who they think is a CEO or someone similar at corporate level. And again, you know, humans are always the weakest link, no matter what controls are put in place. And these guys or gals are, frankly, so clever in that now we’re seeing really the use of AI to imitate voices of CEOs, so it feels like they’re speaking to them. In the old days, it used to be just if you were Danish, not picking on the Danes, but and you were speaking to your Chicago based CEO, you wouldn’t notice that the accent wasn’t quite right in the same way. Now it sounds like the CEO, or even there’s a video of the CEO on the video call. But it’s not, you know, these deep fakes, their egos are massaged, and they’re convinced to wire millions and millions and millions outside of organizations, either because it’s a very confidential deal, either because there’s some big tax liability that’s got to be paid. And then often, our clients, when they phone in a panic, suspect that the individuals that have made the transfers have to be complicit, because they can’t believe they’ve been that “stupid.” But I think what’s constantly underestimated is how clever the social engineering is so they’ve done all the research on the individuals. They are able to reference working hours. They’re able to reference where they live and their family. So it all adds up. And then, you know, they’re put in touch with corporate lawyers at big, well known law firms. But you know, they don’t notice that there’s a dash between the net on the web address and similar they’ve and then the money’s transferred and it is laundered so quickly, so quickly across the world, it’s so hard for companies to get it back. I mean, if they move quickly and fast, then we can get it back, but many don’t. And so that, to me, is the biggest change in terms of the evolving nature of corporate fraud, I think in companies now, maybe moving on to question you haven’t asked me, but companies now are being much more savvy at using their financial data to spot anomalies. In terms of, why are we suddenly wiring 10s of millions out of our Thailand operation?

Kimberley Cole 19:44
Well, that’s what I was going to say. Like, what’s the practical advice, I guess that you give because you’ve got AI as well as the social engineering all now coming full on to a lot of these organizations.

Zoë Newman 19:58
I think organizations have to be much better, and I still don’t think many have got this right, much, much better about how they’re training their employees, and to always question authority, which culturally doesn’t come naturally in a number of jurisdictions. So I think there needs to really be an adjustment as to how employees are being advised as to the latest frauds and how they’re being committed. We’ve all tried to race through corporate training as quickly as possible. I’m not sure that works in the case of being alert to fraud. I think there needs to be better real life examples given, and maybe it needs to be not classroom based, but needs to be in person based. Just two weeks ago, I got a Whatsapp from our CEO saying, hey, Zoë, give me a call. At first I thought, oh, what does he want? Because, you know, I’m not, don’t have an ego enough to think that he needs to call me very often. But it was when I spotted that his picture was our corporate picture. I thought, hang on a second. And then I checked the mobile number against our system and realized it was wrong. That’s just one example that you know, my job, our job, is to be naturally suspicious, and lots of people’s isn’t.

Kimberley Cole 21:12
I mean, I think it’s interesting on the training point, because I actually think the training that we had recently at my company was very good. And a lot of these things you need to keep in mind as a private individual as well. I mean, of course, most of us probably don’t have billions that we’re going to transfer to somebody, but you know the amount that we could end up sending to the wrong or putting in your credit card details when it’s a fake link, or all of those things can have big repercussions, and the training now is saying, check the email address. Is that legitimate? Check all of these other details. Hopefully people take it a little more seriously, because there’s personal benefit.

Zoë Newman 21:57
Completely agree. So I think training is one area encouraging, always questioning, and people being called out for good behavior in that regard. But then we say humans, all the wrongdoers rely on is one week link, and as I say, they’re probably targeting 1000 at the same time. So I do think companies, where companies fall behind, is not monitoring their data effectively, if they spot it within 24 hours, you’ve got a chance of getting it back if you spot it two, three months later. And actually, that’s where big corporates are the weakest, because they might operate cash pooling. It takes a while for the information to channel up, whereas a small, medium enterprise is going to notice if six, 7 million suddenly gone out of its bank account, whereas you know your big corporates aren’t necessarily going to.

Kimberley Cole 22:47
Yeah. So the key, then is really monitoring your data, having some good training, any other ways to minimize losses that you recommend?

Zoë Newman 22:58
I mean, I’ve talked a lot about the external threat, going back to sort of the internal threat. Again, we’re seeing much more corporate buy-in to fraud risk assessment and understanding where their weaknesses are within their organization. You tend to see great, big, glossy headquarters, but then the subsidiary that was acquired seven years ago in Nigeria hasn’t had its systems integrated in any way, shape or form. So I think proactively understanding the fraud risks that you face as a corporate, once controls are necessary in certain either business units or jurisdictions, will also help at the same time. So definitely, sort of a lot of firms just aren’t aware of the risks to them, or have done it five years ago and not allowed for the changing nature of how the business operates.

Kimberley Cole 23:54
And I mean, there’s a huge amount of money, though, that is being spent on compliance and internal audit. So why is this still occurring? Because it’s still, I guess, as you said, people are the weakest link, a lack of tracing the data.

Zoë Newman 24:09
Yeah, and there’s a question I think still around, where does fraud risk fall? So compliance will tend, certainly in corporates, but will tend to focus around ABC sanctions in some areas, AML, but probably not fraud, sort of often. It can be the concern of the CFO, but it’s not really his budget or her budget to buy the tools to investigate this. Compliance offices are always under resourced and don’t have enough budget, so they’re trying to deal with the regulation around them and making sure they’re protecting their firm from a regulatory breach. And I think fraud is the one that can tend to fall between the functions, and it doesn’t really. End up being anybody’s responsibility internal audit similarly, often that’s on a cycle of governance and reviews of controls. So you could say it should fall into internal audit, but often internal audit doesn’t have the same weight that it should do in terms of voice at the table, and again, is under resourced. So to me, that really is one of the main problems. Unless you’re in a huge organization or you’re in financial services, we have seen financial services appetite for fraud risk assessment increase hugely over the past three years or so. Some of that’s been regulatory driven, but that has been a notable uptick from the financial services space.

Kimberley Cole 25:45
Interesting. So, I mean, if we’re looking to the future, then so what do you see as the trends in this field of corporate investigations and compliance overall? And then I guess we could look at, well, we could look at the challenges, the trends and maybe the opportunities.

Zoë Newman 26:03
So I guess a few things in terms of trends. I mean, it’s always hard to predict, because who would have said all of the sanctions issues that have arisen out of Russia, Ukraine, who would have said COVID? So there will doubtless be endless unexpected issues that come out of the blue, and particularly in the geopolitical environment that we’re in at the moment. But I think supply chain risk is coming hugely back up the curve again, and particularly with all of the disruption that’s happening at the moment. You know, with tariffs, with sanctions, I still don’t think many firms have, there are some good examples, but many firms have got to grips with the risk further down their supply chain, like their immediate third parties may be, but their third parties’ third parties, and how that can impact them, we’re starting to see that being recognized much more. But again, it tends to be more the listed corporates and the big firms that have got big budgets. So I think supply chain is one. What’s going to be really interesting is bribery and corruption with the Trump sort of fallback lightening of FCPA enforcement. It’s amazed me how many corporates who really should know better, have asked the question, do I not need to worry so much anymore? And the answer is obviously yes, and that’s not just me, because I work in this space. Like we all know, of course, you still need to worry. But FCPA, I don’t think many have read the small print that enforcement against American companies, not international companies, and that will change again in time. So I do think there will be a fair population of firms that play fast and loose thinking, Oh, it’s all okay now, and the ramifications of that in 3, 5, 7 years will be interesting to see. I guess, trend wise, also, culture investigations. More and more and more we see when we do work for clients in deal situations, there’s always been like an integrity, reputational, due diligence question. Now we’re being asked much more about the culture of the firm that they’re looking to invest in, and I think that is becoming more and more prevalent in terms of what’s triggering whistleblower complaints, what’s triggering a lot more of that sort of whistleblowing alert. And I don’t think firms really understand the culture of their organizations as they should. I think unfortunately, tone from the top has just become one of those buzz phrases that is, you know, okay, fine, but really understanding whether there are issues in certain jurisdictions or even innocently, how the hiring of somebody from a culture in those jurisdictions where there’s lots of expat business and hiring someone and putting them in and not allowing or guiding enough on the need to behave differently in the new culture they’re operating in. We’ve seen lots and lots of firms come unstuck in that regard. So those are the trends that I would foresee, and you watch, I’ll be completely wrong in five year’s time.

Kimberley Cole 29:30
And I guess some of the challenges as well that you’ve outlined there supply chain, risk, bribery and corruption culture, obviously, several challenges around there, but opportunities as well?

Zoë Newman 29:41
I think there is lots more awareness of how global the world is now. So in terms of deals, we’re seeing sort of almost the flow change. So now a lot of the investment is coming from the East into the West, and there’s been a whole redirection of capital flows and investment flows. So I think opportunities wise, we talk a lot about the world becoming much more introspective. Actually, that’s right in some ways, but in others, I feel like there’s a lot more business that the barriers culturally between business are breaking down massively, and I think there is much more cohesiveness around the way business needs to be conducted, is much more commonly understood across jurisdictions, and hopefully we’re losing a bit of that highest West is Best culture and being a bit more accepting that all different cultures have something different to bring to the table.

Kimberley Cole 30:48
Excellent. Well, I think you’ve really covered a lot there on the evolving nature of corporate fraud. I think it’s a fascinating area. Any other key points that you want to leave our listeners with before we move on to some fun wrap up questions.

Zoë Newman 31:06
One piece of advice is in terms of fraud, if you like, read the business news, and that might sound very, very condescending, considering the audience that we’re speaking to, but nowadays, so much news is consumed on social networks. My understanding of opportunity and risk is, frankly, by reading the FT every day, it’s still the best source to me of proper international understanding of the risks around business and what may be coming down the pike, as opposed to snippets off Twitter and Reddit and all of the others.

Kimberley Cole 31:44
Yes, I would support that and say that people should also pay for some news, so whether that’s CFD or the Guardian, but you know, you’ve got to support good investigative and proper journalism.

Zoë Newman 31:56
Completely agree.

Kimberley Cole 31:57
Otherwise we don’t know what we’re reading and whether it’s true either.

Zoë Newman 32:01
Very importantly, but also, you know, most of the really big corporate scandals have been exposed first in the paid for media. And as you say, if that slips away, then where is that channel going to come from?

Kimberley Cole 32:15
Yes, totally agree. Okay, so now maybe it’s not so much of a fun question, but it’s more of a if you could change anything in our industry, what would it be? So this is your you are Queen Zoë for the day. What are you going to change?

Zoë Newman 32:33
I really would, or I really wish much more attention was paid to how flexible working in the sense of job sharing might work. It can’t work in every case, but I think for employees with longevity, with real expertise that have worked closely together to retain people in a difficult industry to work in, when you have a family, you know, it’s really important that we have men and women. I’ve seen too many women drop out just because it’s too hard to manage the lifestyle that comes with it, with having a family at the same time. And I think it could be managed when you have strong working relationships amongst trusted colleagues, but it isn’t explored enough.

Kimberley Cole 33:20
Interesting one, very good. We could have a whole discussion on that. And what’s the next innovation or positive change that you see coming?

Zoë Newman 33:32
In terms of positive change, I think everybody is talking about AI at the moment in the same way that everybody used to talk about data analytics five years ago, and it’s become just another buzz phrase without most people really understanding what it means or how it might be relevant to them. I think AI in terms of mining client data quickly, but also preparing some of the basic reports and harnessing data quickly so it can be presented to the client quickly will drive much more cost efficiency in investigations. For clients, I think over time, the cost of investigations got too much. There was too much manual email review, data review, whereas now, I think clients have become much more savvy, because they’re aware how the use of AI in a how you combine data that you know has integrity to drive efficiency will be useful to them. I’m not a great believer still in how our AI is going to change and put us all out of job. Because I think still, the data that is mining in a lot of places is not trustworthy to begin with.

Kimberley Cole 34:46
And then finally, we would love your recommendations of a book to read, something to watch and or a podcast to listen to.

Zoë Newman 34:56
So this is very dated because my TV watching is not highbrow, but I love Billions because it’s it’s a lot of the sort of world that we work in. So it’s those sort of Netflix shows, unfortunately, that drive most of my viewing, as opposed to something highbrow. In terms of podcast, I don’t have a lot of time to listen to podcasts, but the podcast I listen to every single week is The Rest is Politics, because, again, it’s so important that we have a international understanding of what’s going on in the world, not just a business understanding, and not just your jurisdiction. So that gives me the overview, so I know what I need to then dip into quickly to read a bit further.

Kimberley Cole 35:41
Excellent. All right. Well, it was a pleasure speaking with you, Zoë, and thank you for joining us. I learned a lot on what’s going on with corporate fraud, and I’m sure our listeners will have as well. And pleasure to speak to you and hope to see you again soon.

Zoë Newman 35:59
You too. Thanks so much.

Kimberley Cole 36:01
Thank you.

Kimberley Cole 36:05
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