Podcast S8E3 | Risk & Compliance Against Technology-Facilitated Domestic Violence

TRANSCRIPT

Kimberley Cole 0:01
This is Risky Women Radio, a show that connects, celebrates and champions women in risk regulation and compliance. We’re here to share the insights on the biggest issues in our industry and hear inspiring journeys from our global members. Sign up to our newsletter at riskywomen.org. I’m Kimberley Cole, your Chief Risky Woman.

Kimberley Cole 0:23
Welcome to Risky Women Radio, today’s risky woman is one of our Risky Women Write competition winners, which is the first time that we ran the competition in 2024 so I am absolutely thrilled to be speaking with Kim Chandler McDonald. Kim is the co founder and CEO of 3 Steps Data and global VP of the Cybersecurity Advisors Network (CyAN), which merges technology, innovation with a human touch. She is an advocate, author and transformative leader. She’s dedicated to making the digital world secure and human centered, backed by her award winning books and global thought leadership. So welcome Kim!

Kim Chandler McDonald 1:10
Thank you so much, Kimberley, gosh you make me sound fabulous. Thank you for that.

Kimberley Cole 1:15
Well, I think you are quite fabulous, and so what I’d like to kick off with is to hear more about your career journey. So can you take us through the highlights of your journey to date?

Kim Chandler McDonald 1:28
Sure, I would say that, particularly in the arena in which I am now in, which is technology for the most part, it is considerably convoluted. So essentially, it started from running a theater company in London, editing newspapers and magazines and hosting a radio show in Amsterdam, and now leading this which, if I might say, a pioneering tech company. So yeah, I would say that my journey has been diverse. Each role has its unique challenges, and there were learning opportunities that I think shaped me into being a more dynamic CEO and a strategist. So for instance, at 3 Steps Data, I lead the change in developing accessible, high tech, high tier technology solutions that are focused on essentially redefining cybersecurity and data management for the majority world, rather than that top 1% who can afford Oracle and SAP, which are fine, but as most people cannot afford them, and then with CyAN, we have members in 25 countries. And my real task, if you will, is working on amplifying our global impact and fostering a vibrant community and engagement and also celebrating the achievements of our members.

Kimberley Cole 2:47
Absolutely, and that sort of sounds similar to what we do here at Risky Women, so we’ll have to work out how we can collaborate a bit more. But that sounds amazing. And I love that diversity, wow, from the theater to radio, media to where you are now is just amazing. So obviously, all of them very different. How do you guess, talking across them, or even just on the role today? How do you think you create impact with your role?

Kim Chandler McDonald 3:16
Well, I think certainly with theater and media and whatnot key skills are communication, collaboration and cooperation. So if you’re looking to lead a company, particularly one that is out on the edge, as we certainly were when we began our journey, being able to do that, to communicate, to cooperate and collaborate were imperatives. And I think, to be honest, I think more people in the technological arena should be taking some courses that essentially teach them, yes, how to communicate, but also how to question and to think outside of the box. So I actually am a proponent for tech majors taking a philosophy course and just really learning how to question. I guess I bridge some gaps as well between advanced tech and everyday users, because I’m able to communicate through my training. My goal is really to, essentially to democratize technology so it’s it’s not just effective, but it’s inclusive. So I would say that we’re dedicated to providing safer, simpler tools that empower end users, and especially the underrepresented and the economically disadvantaged. And that speaks to my advocacy, and advocacy is a theme that runs through In fact, I wrote my first letter to the editor at age seven, demanding change, and I don’t think much has changed in the many, many years since then, to be honest.

Kimberley Cole 4:33
That’s fantastic. I love that. I think that’s really interesting as well, in terms of having those mix of skills and translating things and. And I think there’s a fabulous lady in Australia who did anthropology, who then worked for Intel for many, many years, and was really changing the way that they thought about technology and what it meant for people. And I think, you know, bringing those skills together is very, very interesting.

Kim Chandler McDonald 5:22
You know, Kimberley, I was on the enterprise board of a university here for over a decade, and because of that, I was often asked by parents of soon to be university students, what should my child learn? What should my child…and I had to be very honest with them and say I would be lying to you if I told you that I would know what they should study today to have a job in a year’s time, things are changing so rapidly, and that was 10 years ago, 10 plus years ago, but I did say, I guarantee you that the one role that will never go out of fashion, if you will, is the individual who can bridge the communication gap between the technology team and the business team. If you can speak those languages in a way that they understand and engage with, you will be the most powerful person at that table.

Kimberley Cole 6:13
Yeah, that’s very good advice that you gave 10 years ago, and you’ve mentioned some of your advocacy, so kind of tell me a bit more about what are you really passionate about.

Kim Chandler McDonald 6:25
Yeah, my passion runs deep for empowering end users. It really does, and leveraging technology to really uplift rather than undermine so I am especially committed to advocating for data privacy, digital rights, and I think very importantly, combating technology facilitated domestic violence and coercive control, which is an initiative I lead at CyAN.

Kimberley Cole 6:52
Which we are going to dig into, because that was your winning article. So fantastic.

Kim Chandler McDonald 6:59
I’m also an extremely strong advocate for the adoption of end to end encryption, because at its core, it’s about control and safety for both individuals and businesses. So for listeners who might not really understand end to end or the imperatives around it, to my mind, it is essential because it ensures that sensitive data, whether it’s intellectual property, financial transactions or private communications, that they stay secure from cyber threats, corporate espionage and data breaches. And in a world that is well, let’s face it, trust is a currency, really. So protecting confidential information, it’s not just best practice. It is a business imperative, and then for survivors of domestic violence and coercive control, end to end encryption can be a literal lifeline, because if somebody is trying to escape their abuser, whether it’s a controlling partner or a stalker or an authoritarian regime, they need to communicate without fear of being monitored or intercepted. And end to end, encryption ensures that that private conversation really will remain truly confidential, and it shields survivors from further harm, and it gives them ability to reach out safely and ask for help. So in focusing on these areas, well, it leans into my passion for playing a part in making the digital world not only safer but more accessible and equitable for everyone.

Kimberley Cole 8:35
That’s fantastic, and let’s talk more about both the winning article for the Risky Women Write competition, but your work in that space, a couple more questions, just on your career, before we jump in, because it feels like you’ve taken a few risks in terms of that journey. So what would you say, though, are the biggest risks that you’ve taken in your career, and did they pay off?

Kim Chandler McDonald 8:58
Yeah, that’s a great question. Thank you. Some might say that starting a tech company aimed at doing something that even one of the godfathers of the internet said was impossible was a ridiculously high stakes gamble, but particularly that we self funded this whole thing that was a major risk, the fact that we did actually make the impossible possible by revolutionizing this secure data management for the majority world. Leads me to say, Yes, it did pay off. But really, my career journey, which has, oh, my goodness, it’s mental, it has been a series of yes moments, either that’s about moving continents or diving into, for instance, media with no training. I mean, I ended up being arts and culture editor of a newspaper when I had never had any kind of training in it. I just thought, how hard can it be? And if it’s really hard and I do a bad job, they’ll tell me. So I would say embracing risk has taught me that if you embrace a challenge, this can lead to extraordinary outcomes. So my golden rule is say Yes!

Kimberley Cole 10:13
Right. So is that been sort of your light bulb moment in terms of the choices that you’ve made?

Kim Chandler McDonald 10:20
I think that that’s a big one. There are a couple of others that I found myself in. So for instance, with this crazy editing of and particularly when I was arts and culture editor of a expat newspaper that had just started up in Amsterdam, we were the only English language newspaper aimed at expats. So if anybody came into the country and wanted to sell something, be it a book, a film, an album, whatever it is they had to go through me, which was crazy. I was interviewing my heroes. I remember sitting across a coffee table, if you will, from Madeleine Albright and me, sort of looking at her and thinking, What is going on here? It really was…or Tom Wolf, you know, John Irving, Amy Tan. F.W. de Klerk, who, you know, 10 years before, I’d been throwing rocks at the South African Embassy, you know, and singing Free Mandela, and then I’m sitting across the table interviewing. F.W. de Klerk, it was crazy, really. It was crazy. But with Madeleine Albright, I think what was really illuminating for me, a master class in how powerful narratives can change almost anything, including the world, and that you essentially can be a total badass and still stay true to your values. So that was, for me, a major one. The last one I’ll share with you, though, is, and this is a little odd, but I think it was truly a defining moment for me, and that was planting trees and signing up to be an emergency forest firefighter in northern Canada for a summer. I still laugh at this, because I had never held a shovel before, and the only reason I did it was because I had had a couple of drinks, and the couple of guys sitting at the bar were saying, This is what they were going to do. And I thought, oh, that sounds really interesting. And they looked at me and said, Well, girls can’t do that. Well, obviously, now this girl has to. What that summer taught me was that resilience, and I guess it reinforced that stepping outside my comfort zone is essentially where the magic happens for me. So even now, when I’m faced with something really daunting, I remind myself, you can do this. You were a freaking tree planter, and I just get up there and go.

Kimberley Cole 12:43
That’s amazing. Gosh, what phenomenal experiences you’ve had. I mean, Madeleine Albright that would, I mean, I’d love to speak to her. It’s like one of those questions when people say, Who would you like, you know, to have brown for dinner sort of thing, and have a conversation with.

Kim Chandler McDonald 12:57
Very much so!

Kimberley Cole 12:58
Brilliant. Well, let’s get on to your thought leadership and the article that you wrote, obviously for the Risky Women Writes competition, but I know that you’ve spent a lot of other additional time on, which is around risk compliance and the fight against technology facilitated domestic violence, which obviously we had an amazing range of topics that were written about, but this one particularly struck a chord with the judges and was a really, really interesting piece. So I guess to kick off, you know what inspired you to write about this topic around risk compliance and the fight against technology facilitated domestic violence. You’ve sort of spoken a bit about your advocacy, but

Kim Chandler McDonald 13:44
Yes!

Kimberley Cole 13:44
What was the kickoff and the inspiration around it?

Kim Chandler McDonald 13:47
I moved to Sydney a number of years ago with my now Australian husband, and I was looking for something to do. I realized after a couple of years that I wasn’t really doing anything. I had been a doer for most of my life. I’d become a little complacent. Sydney is a really easy place to become complacent in. And I thought, well, I’ll go and find a charity that I can do some work with. And I found a refuge for women who were facing trauma or crisis. And that was essentially my beginning of thinking about domestic violence at all. It had not been something that really had been in my ecosystem or my view. And I did a number of things. I wrote a book that raised money for them. We did a few things, but it wasn’t enough, and I wanted to find a way to bring my technology access and know how and my advocacy together, and this seemed a particularly good way to do it. And specifically to the Risky Women article, I was adamant that this is a poignant issue where risk management and compliance can play a heroic role. Not just in safeguarding data, but actually saving lives. And it seemed quite obvious to me that this correlation was there, but I realized that it was perhaps obvious to me because of my background in advocacy. So you gave me the opportunity for the very first time, really, I had not written about it before, so the Risky Women gave me the opportunity to do that. I will be forever grateful.

Kimberley Cole 15:28
Thank you. And I mean, that’s really interesting. Explain then, how did you approach integrating those themes of risk and compliance into the discussion of technology facilitated domestic violence?

Kim Chandler McDonald 15:43
That’s a great question. So I dove into the integration with the belief that when risk management and compliance are done right, they serve as a backbone of trust and safety in tech. So it was really for me, it was just about painting the picture where the frameworks don’t just support business objectives, but they’re pivotal in protecting individuals from digital harm, because businesses already have risk and compliance frameworks in place, they just needed to be reframed and strengthened so they can actively prevent harm, not just mitigate corporate liability.

Kimberley Cole 16:19
Yes, absolutely. And what were the sort of challenges that you faced when you were researching this topic and writing this article?

Kim Chandler McDonald 16:27
Yeah, I think the biggest hurdle was there is a delicate balance between technical accuracy and essentially being human, the human element, if you will. So the data is overwhelming, but the real challenge was how to convey the stories behind the numbers so that, essentially, I was ensuring that the voice of the affected wasn’t drowned out by jargon.

Kimberley Cole 16:54
Yeah, I think you actually did a very good job at keeping it clear, simple, understandable, but also capturing a lot of the key points. So yeah, I recommend everyone to read it, of course, as long with many of the other articles, and what impact do you hope that the article had on readers and I guess, on the industry practices as well?

Kim Chandler McDonald 17:19
I’m hoping it lights a fire. We really need a seismic shift in how business and businesses perceive their roles in digital safety. My goal, I guess, was for readers to come away not just informed, but motivated to instigate change in their spheres of influence and recognizing that their actions really can foster safer digital spaces.

Kimberley Cole 17:42
Interesting. So if you’re going to look at some of the key takeaways, what would be those key takeaways after reading the article on technology facilitated domestic violence?

Kim Chandler McDonald 17:54
So I think firstly, that awareness is just the beginning. Action is needed. So I want them to understand the power of proactive compliance, and then the necessity for robust risk strategies that protect all users, especially the most vulnerable. And I guess lastly, that everyone has a role in this fight.

Kimberley Cole 18:18
Yeah, interesting. And what do you think organizations can do to better prepare and also take some action and respond to the challenges.

Kim Chandler McDonald 18:27
I love that question, so it starts with education and awareness. Those lead into actionable policies that prioritize user safety as much as data security. So to my mind, organizations must adopt a zero tolerance stance towards abuse facilitated by their platforms, and they’ve got to leverage their technology, not just for profit, but for protection, because the tech is there. We already monitor cybersecurity threats in real time every second of every day, companies are tracking unusual login attempts and fraudulent transactions and unauthorized access. We already have AI powered cyber security monitoring to detect corporate threats. So why don’t we use the same logic, the same technology to detect coercive control patterns in account activity. I’m not asking anybody to do any more work, as the Dutch say, it’s about working smarter, not harder, and it’s about working ethically and using the tools we already have to create safer systems for everyone.

Kimberley Cole 19:37
And what ways do you think that policy changes could help in sort of mitigating some of those risks associated with the technology facilitated domestic violence.

Kim Chandler McDonald 19:46
Yeah, it’s such a mouthful, isn’t it?

Kimberley Cole 19:48
Yeah!

Kim Chandler McDonald 19:50
TFDV. TFDV. We need policies that aren’t just reactive. They need to be visionary. So. So they need to create environments where safety and privacy aren’t an afterthought. So legislators and leaders must collaborate to forge laws that keep pace, or at least attempt to keep pace, with technological advances, and frankly, the new ways that the new tech is being misused.

Kimberley Cole 20:19
Do you think anyone’s leading the way in that space at the moment, any particular jurisdictions?

Kim Chandler McDonald 20:25
Look, there are jurisdictions that are attempting it, I would say that because of their protection of data privacy, the EU is doing quite well. I would say that Australia, in its focus on E safety, and the E Safety Commissioner in Australia is doing a superb job. That said, what often happens is that either the people who are involved in the panel to make a determination know very, very little about technology, or they may know about technology, but they’re a very big player, so they’re more interested in pushing their own platforms, rather than in a potential solution to a problem. And also, I would say that rarely are the victims actually listened to and what they need. I’m not looking for trauma porn. It is not about listening to the victims and about the stories of what happened to them. We need to listen to what they need to be safe. So yes, there are certain legislative arenas that are doing some good work, but a lot more needs to be done, and it needs to be done better.

Kim Chandler McDonald 20:35
Yeah, interesting. So, I mean, I guess then looking ahead, you know, what further research or actions do you think are needed?

Kim Chandler McDonald 21:58
I think that again, bringing together a group of stakeholders, and it has to be all the stakeholders. So it is the legislators, the service providers, the emergency responders, the victim survivors themselves, the people who are working with the perpetrators. Everyone has to be together in looking at this as an entirety, it is an ecosystem where all the stakeholders have to be able to work together. And to my mind that comes down to secure data sharing in a controlled way, which means you have to have technology that enables the owner of the data, which is the victim survivor, generally speaking, to have control over their data, to know what’s being done with it and determine whether they want to share it with certain individuals or entities and how long they want that to be shared with that entity or individual. It is very much about control. Additionally, training needs to be done so that when, for instance, you have help desk respondents, they need to be trained to listen out for red flags. They are probably at the front line of most interactions. So at every single layer of an organization, there needs to be some semblance of training and understanding of the immensity of this problem and the costs.

Kimberley Cole 23:45
I mean, what can our listeners do then? What can they do to help?

Kim Chandler McDonald 23:49
Well, I think this is great. Listening to the Risky Women podcast is a great start. Then reading my article second best Star. Just seriously, if your listeners start just by becoming informed, and then inform others to spread awareness. One of the major things that happened in Australia was there was an incredibly inspiring woman, Rosie Batty, who lost her child in an absolutely horrific I couldn’t possibly begin to explain or understand the situation, but she rather than cower, rather than be silent…

Kimberley Cole 24:28
She was Australian of the year…

Kim Chandler McDonald 24:30
That’s right, she was and she she spoke about it. She took it from the shadows and made it very clear that this was not a situation that only happened to them, but it happened to her and us, and we so talking about it is incredibly important, advocating for your workplace to adopt and enforce policies that tackle digital abuse, support organizations that are on the front lines, but really never underestimate the power of standing up and speaking out is immense, because every voice can be a beacon for change.

Kimberley Cole 25:09
Yeah, so both in your community, in your organization, wherever you’re operating, yeah? So I think exactly listen to this, read the article, but yeah, great opportunity for the whole Risky Women tribe to help on address this technology facilitated domestic violence. So that is fantastic. You’ve really kind of inspired and sparked in a new area where I think compliance, governance and risk can really also help and focus. And I think we love that solutions opportunity, because often compliance can be seen as a blocker. So I think this is a great way to show that it’s not.

Kim Chandler McDonald 25:54
It’s actually a protector. It’s an incredibly important segment of the ecosystem, and all it takes is a one degree shift. The tools are there. I think the willingness is there. It’s just a matter of bringing those two things together and having a champion.

Kimberley Cole 26:11
Excellent, excellent. All right, well, look a few sort of final questions to wrap up, but I’d love to hear just a little bit more about CyAN. Can you tell the network about CyAN, and what you guys are doing in the in the cyber security space?

Kim Chandler McDonald 26:26
Yeah. Look, we’re actually celebrating our 10th year anniversary in May, May 15. Globally, we’re having parties around the world, which I’m thrilled about. And CyAN initially was very much an organization formed by and for cyber security professionals, and it was very tech based and a little siloed. It was formed, I think, before we really realized the enormity of the issues around digital safety, and though science said that its purpose was to create a safer, digital world. We were very focused on larger entities, you know, be it, oh, my goodness, Interpol or the OECD, creating policy papers that would resonate with that kind of entity. It has recently changed, and I think that is because what we have done is open the doors to many more individuals and organizations, because we realize that if we’re going to have a safer digital world, it has to be safer for everyone, which means that we now include in our family, if you will, people who are very much involved in governance, risk and safety, trust and safety. We are looking at the policies that enable the majority world to be safe. And because of that, I think we are quite unusual. We are very international. We look at our family, if you will, as being very global. So that, in itself, changes how we address certain issues. And we are excited that we’re growing. And I think a lot of that growth is because we have opened ourselves up and we communicate, cooperate and collaborate with many different types of organizations who are all committed in their own way to creating this safer digital world.

Kim Chandler McDonald 27:29
Excellent, excellent. Well, I look forward to seeing how we can collaborate, too. But my other kind of fun questions that I like to finish up with…if you could change anything in your industry, what would that be?

Kim Chandler McDonald 28:48
That’s a great question. If I could change anything, it would be much more open to a diverse community of practitioners we only are strengthened by diversity. So to my mind, the more women, the more people of color, the more people from different societal and geographical regions are included in this, the better off we will be, the stronger we will be. I guess, on a more specific note, if I could change one thing, it would be the perception that tech and data protection are only about safeguarding assets, because, to my mind, they’re about safeguarding spirits and communities. So yeah, I keep my eye on the horizon for perhaps where ethical AI is going to set some redefining of digital interactions, and just really hoping with every fiber of my being that that redefinition is rooted in security and driven by empathy.

Kimberley Cole 29:59
Very good. What’s the next innovation or positive change that you see coming?

Kim Chandler McDonald 30:04
Oh, wow! I am, I’m really excited about the shift towards greater individual control over data, privacy and ownership. I think that is the next big wave of tech innovation, empowering people to take command of their personal data, so that essentially, a few major organizations who are making fortunes off of the essentially the sweat of your data, your personal information, I think, much like colonialism had its day and is gone, I think that essentially, data colonialization is pretty much at the end now, that is my hope. I think we’re we’re moving into a future where technologies not only comply with stringent privacy standards, but that they put the power of data management directly into the hands of the users who are, to my mind, the true data owners. So innovations like the personal and personalized data vaults we’ve created at 3 Steps Data are, I think, set to redefine, and I might even, say, revolutionize how data is stored, shared and secured. I think the key is making data privacy not just a policy but a personal capability, enabling everyone to protect and manage their digital footprint effectively.

Kimberley Cole 31:31
Absolutely, I think that would be perfect, if we can get to that point. All right now. To end, can you share a book to read, something to watch and a podcast you recommend?

Kim Chandler McDonald 31:47
Fun! Okay, well, obviously, the first book I’m going to tell people to read is my latest, which is An Interviewer’s Guidebook: Turning Conversations into Captivating Stories. So look, it’s the interviews guidebook. It’s packed with insights for anyone looking to elevate their conversational skills and tell their stories more effectively. This comes from my many years interviewing people like Madeleine Albright, whether you are doing an interview or being interviewed for a job, or you’re a founder and you want to promote your product, or you’re a thought leader and want to promote your perspective, being able to tell your story well is an imperative, and I have, I think, loaded that book with oodles of tips and tricks and tools for anyone who’s looking to be able to just hone that skill little finer.

Kimberley Cole 32:40
Well, we will put that link in the show notes as well. And we maybe we should have you on for a Rev-up session, because we did some business storytelling as one of our sessions last year on the Rev-up sessions. But yeah, all of those skills, and I calling them superpowers, because we want to, you know, build on our already existing fabulousness that we have in the Risky Women network.

Kim Chandler McDonald 33:06
Yeah, and Kimberley, you have touched on something that I’m really passionate about as well, which is when people talk about communication, cooperation, collaboration, and somehow refer to them as soft skills. There is nothing soft about them. They’re…It is not easy. It is a superpower, you know. So I thank you for that. That was wonderful. If I was going to talk about a book other than my own, I would say the book wherever I am in the world, probably for the last oh my gosh, since I was probably 13 years old, this particular book has traveled with me. It’s called Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah. It’s by Richard Bach, and to my mind, it is a must read. He was the gentleman who wrote Jonathan Livingston Seagull. And it reminds us, or it reminds me at least, that the limits that we perceive are often limits that we have imposed upon ourselves. So I think that personally, that is an illumination, but it’s also really crucial when you’re breaking new ground in business. So to me, it is a a lodestone. It is, it is a very important book with regards to watching. So this might sound a little weird, but my co founder and I are obsessed by Chef’s Table, which is a series on Netflix. And I’m telling you, I think that for a founder or you couldn’t watch a better show, there is so much passion and creativity showcase there that really mirrors the entrepreneurial spirit. I also have to say that the hospitality industry is amazing. I mean narrow margins, constant deadlines, never ending stress, barely any sleep, and yet they ceaselessly create art and. Build bridges. So to my mind, Chef’s Table is fabulous. Just make sure you have something to nibble nearby, because, oh my goodness, you can’t help me hunt the other show. I want to give a guess a shout out to would be John Oliver’s Last Week Tonight. I think that he and his team never cease to speak truth, and when I say truth, I mean facts. So they never stop in their speaking truth to power, and yet somehow still manage to take the most difficult subjects and put a hilarious spin on it. So to me, they are Titans. Yeah, I mean, I think probably what it may tell you more about my inner workings than anything else with a podcast I listen to, and this is the first time somebody’s asked me this question, actually. So I’m always compelled to learn in a way that I find entertaining. It’s just, it’s just how I work. So my podcasts are The Rest is History, Behind the Basket, yep, The Daily Zeitgeist and The Daily Show Ears Edition, I learned something from each of those every single time I listen to them, and I never, I never end a show without having laughed out loud at least a couple of times. So, yeah, I think, I think they’re very powerful.

Kimberley Cole 36:25
Good – The Rest is History is already on my list, and I listen regularly to The Rest is Politics and The Rest is Entertainment I really like as well.

Kim Chandler McDonald 36:32
Yes, I just picked that up about three months ago, and have just become obsessed. Thank you for reminding me of that one. It’s…

Kimberley Cole 36:41
Yes, it’s a good one, because, like, to your point of like, I was always getting a few hints and tips here on what to watch, what to listen to, but I can get them from The Rest is Entertainment. So that’s always good, too. A couple of good ones there that I haven’t listened to. So I will add to my list, because I like them while I’m out walking and running and stuff.

Kim Chandler McDonald 37:01
Can I just add one last thing? And this is not a book, per se, but I would suggest that anybody who is interested in facts and in social awareness and to a certain extent, speaking truth to power and social justice, The Guardian newspaper is without doubt, the best journal in the world, to my mind, and the fact that they’re able to do it from position of trust, because they are a trust, so they don’t have to pay off stakeholders or owners, they can just do their job. I think that if you are looking to support a national, international organization in that arena, you could not do better than subscribing to The Guardian. But again, you don’t even have to be a subscriber. The Guardian is not behind a firewall. So if you want to read what’s really going on, read The Guardian.

Kimberley Cole 37:58
I agree, but I do think people should pay for press, because, as a long term ex Reuters employee, I think if we want fair, open, transparent and trustworthy press, we’re going to have to start paying for it.

Kim Chandler McDonald 38:14
Absolutely, you’re quite right.

Kimberley Cole 38:16
Yeah, very, very good. Well, it’s been absolutely fabulous to speak with you. Thank you so much for being a contributor and winner to the Risky Women Write competition, and we look forward to another edition this year in 2025 but that has been so great to hear more and learn more about technology facilitated domestic violence and what we can do about it. I hope everyone listening has taken something away from that, and it’s been an absolute delight. I’m sorry that it has to end.

Kim Chandler McDonald 38:51
Thank you so much. I’ve enjoyed it so much. Thank you and the entirety of the process, from the minute the call came out, asking for articles, straight through the entire Risky Women organization, and the people that you work with within that are just such a joy. So thank you. I think you’re doing really great work, and I look forward to creating even more bonds.

Kimberley Cole 39:15
Excellent I do too. So thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for listening.

Kimberley Cole 39:21
Thank you for listening to this episode of Risky Women Radio, be part of the ongoing conversation and learn more about our events and other programs at riskywomen.org