Podcast S6E7 | How to be a CRO: Jennifer Geary

TRANSCRIPT

Kimberley Cole 0:01
This is Risky Women Radio, a show that connects, celebrates and champions women in risk regulation and compliance. We’re here to share the insights on the biggest issues in our industry and hear inspiring journeys from our global members. Sign up to our newsletter at riskywomen.org. I’m Kimberley Cole, your Chief Risky Woman.

Kimberley Cole 0:21
Welcome to Risky Women Radio. Today’s risky woman is Jennifer Geary. So welcome, Jennifer.

Jennifer Geary 0:30
Thank you very much, Kimberley Great to be here.

Kimberley Cole 0:32
Jennifer Geary has over 25 years of experience in finance, technology risk and legal across diverse industries from financial services to not for profit. She has been managing director EMEA for a software company, and COO and CRO, so that’s Chief Operating Officer and Chief Risk Officer for a number of fintechs. She’s also worked in major banks such as Santander, Barclays, and was also COO for Save the Children UK. She’s the author of a range of business books. Her first book was How to be a Chief Operating Officer. And she followed last autumn with How to be a Chief Risk Officer which we are going to jump into. She has also just recently launched the third in the series How to be a Chief People Officer, which we will touch on a little bit of swell. So she did that in collaboration with an HR professional. So Jennifer holds a Bachelor of Commerce from the University College Dublin and a Master of Business Administration in accounting from Michael Smurfit Graduate School of Business, and recently completed a course in sustainable finance and ESG investing at NYU Stern. So fantastic. Jennifer, great to have you here. And I’d love to hear more about your career journey. So can you kind of walk us through and maybe talk about some of these key moves and the decisions that you made along the way on this journey that you’ve been on?

Jennifer Geary 2:03
Sure, I’d be delighted to and you’ve done a great job already have talking about some of the highlights. But I think those inflection points are important, aren’t they? So we’ll talk about those. Yeah, as you’ve said, I started out in Dublin, and I trained as a chartered accountant there. But I always knew I wanted a little more than the numbers. I wanted to go beyond the numbers. And quite early on got into technology, risk consulting. So I was doing systems auditing, as well as financial auditing at that time. One big moment after I qualified was to secure a move to New York, my then boyfriend now husband and I both worked in financial services. And we wanted to experience one of the big global financial hubs. And we managed to move to New York and spent a couple of years there, came back to London in 2002. And I had a long and fantastic time at Barclays 13 years in Barclays doing a range of different roles and really vacuuming up a suite of experiences in project management in risk management, information risk, program delivery, all of those things. Then there was a key moment, I think, when the banking industry was having a tough time. And this was around the time of sort of PPI, mis selling and LIBOR rate fixing and a huge heavy compliance overload. And I felt I needed to do something different. I felt I wasn’t growing. And I took a risk to go and help out Save the Children at a point where they needed initially some interim COO cover, and that ended up becoming a two and a half year experience with them. So from then the FinTech area was booming. And I, as you’ve pointed out, did a number of roles, including COO and CRO roles, in fintax, where I got to take all of that sort of financial services experience and apply it to this new and exciting world of FinTech and then also jumped across the table and worked in financial services software for a while as well. So there was some of those big moments, those moves were big moments, and the industry change was big as well. But all valuable and all brought me something along the way as well.

Kimberley Cole 2:53
Really interesting in terms of that journey, I guess, what was some of the lightbulb moments, if you like or some of those things that sort of shaped the choices that you made along the way do you think?

Jennifer Geary 4:11
I think a critical turning point was, as I said, that point at which I moved out of financial services and into not for profit for a period of time, I was at a really key moment in my life, my mom had just passed away, which really gave me pause for thought about what I was doing what I was achieving in life. I was in my sort of mid to late 30s. I just had my two children, which changes your perspective hugely and the light bulb moment for me up until then, I was just sort of a good soldier. You know, I was working hard. I was doing the best that I could, in whatever field I was in at that particular point in time. And that age, I remember because there’s a song At the age of 37. Right? You know, I asked myself that. What was I doing not just wasn’t doing well enough, but what was I doing and was I doing the thing that I was meant to do? And was I making the change that I needed to make and so that was what spurred that leap into not for profit. And, you know, whatever I’ve done since then there’s always been that sort of element of doing good of social good of helping out along the way. So I think that was a really pivotal moment.

Kimberley Cole 5:12
That’s interesting, the reason that you change but then getting that diversity from the for profit and the not for profit.

Jennifer Geary 5:20
Sure.

Kimberley Cole 5:21
But I assume that there’s still a lot of similarities yeah?

Jennifer Geary 5:24
Well, it was such an interesting time. I mean, it saved the children took a risk on me for which I’m forever grateful. And Barclays also facilitated that time as well. But I remember very early on going in there, and they were huge at the time in a 400 million pound, UK NGO. And while there were things that I really had to learn from scratch and understand, such as programming, such as fundraising, there were things like they needed a new 15 year strategy. And they needed a business plan that went behind that strategy that the numbers lined up with. They were having a building refit. And they were putting in a new finance and HR system. And I remember on my very first day, as I was surveying what was going on thinking, I know this, or I know, 60% of this, I’m 60% useful to you, day one and the rest of my God, I’m going to knuckle down and learn. So there was a really interesting overlap and and hopefully it was helpful to them, and hugely a huge learning experience for me.

Kimberley Cole 6:19
I mean, that’s great as well, in terms of even that you, I guess, took the risk of changing because there’s always that statistic that says that women don’t apply for these roles unless they have 100% of the capabilities, or skills ticked off on the job description. So fantastic. And I always think, Well, why would you want to do it? If it was 100% of everything you already knew? Like? What are you learning?

Jennifer Geary 6:41
Exactly right. And it was challenging! And I guess we’ll talk about because it in a way that was really the spur for the book, but I won’t, I won’t jump ahead too much.

Kimberley Cole 6:49
And so you kind of mentioned then that underlying wanting to give back, etc. What would you consider sort of you’re really passionate about?

Jennifer Geary 6:58
Yeah, I think you really have to listen to yourself sometimes, don’t you? And I think that doing good that doing things in the right way that leaving things better than you found them has just come increasingly to the fore. As I’ve grown and developed and learn to listen to my voice a little bit more, by the way, to me, that does not exclusively mean working in the third sector, or you can absolutely, commercial organizations, corporates can absolutely do good. And the force for change that they can be alongside still being profitable enterprises is you know, really important to me. But purpose, honesty, doing things right, building things to last, those are the values that I try and set no matter what I’m doing.

Kimberley Cole 7:41
Fantastic. So what would you call out as some of the most important lessons that you’ve learned along the way?

Jennifer Geary 7:47
So there’s a couple I think I’ve touched on it already. But what I would say to young women coming up their career ladder, think about what you’re doing, as well as how well you’re doing it, it kind of you’ve got to do it well. But what is it that you’re applying your precious time, skills and energy to? Is it the right thing? Is it the optimal thing? Is that the most important thing? That was a huge question and turning point for me, listen to your voice. I think again, a lot of us can come up through the schooling and education system and be very obedient, really, you know, and we just want to do a good job. And you’ve really got to cultivate listening to that inner voice and what that voice is telling you. And I’ve never regretted following my gut along the way, you just have to listen to yourself. And then the other thing, I think, as I’ve gone through life and had children and experienced life events and seen other people is kindness and humanity go a long way. I think in my mid 20s, I was highly effective. But my goodness, I was a machine. And it’s only as actually I’ve allowed more of myself and more of my humanity to come in, I think where I’ve really felt those connections with people grow even better.

Kimberley Cole 8:51
Yeah, that’s really interesting. So I think that’s some great advice for our listeners. And if you were thinking about advice that you received, what would be the top piece of advice that you think that you’ve been given?

Jennifer Geary 9:04
Well, I hope she listens to this podcast, I’m going to give a shout out to a lady called Erica Handling. She was a very senior lawyer in Barclays when I was there. And one of the things she said was think of your career as being on a motorway. And sometimes you’re in the fast lane and you’re zooming along and you’re you know, going at, you know the top speed and that kind of thing, but sometimes you need to pull into another lane. And sometimes actually, you need to take the slip road off, and that’s absolutely okay. And you can rejoin further down the path. And I think it’s so easy for women, we beat ourselves up, we worry about a gap in a CV or something that you know something that’s different or something that’s a bit left field and I’ve probably made more moves than most, but they’ve all been enriching. So don’t beat yourself up about it. And if you feel that there’s experience or there’s something that’s calling to you, then listen to that and take that road off the motorway. Thank you, Erica.

Kimberley Cole 9:53
Yeah, exactly. Thank you, Erica. That’s very interesting perspective. So now let’s get into, I’m super excited, now I’ve got my own original signed copy of my book here from Jennifer that she’s brought him for me today. Now, you’ve now written three books, which I think is phenomenal. And I really want to jump into the chief risk officer one, obviously, because that’s going to be key for our audience. But I’m sure that you can give us some hints and tips and insights on the other books as well. But from my kind of initial looking at the book, and what it’s all about, and I’ve read that it demystifies the CRO role, and breaks it into its constituent parts. So let’s dig into the three fundamental pillars of culture, strategy and execution and the six risk areas comprising strategic, people, technology, financial, operational, and sustainability. And so I think this is, you know, amazing that you’ve almost got this bible for how to be a CRO, and I’m sure it’s going to be super useful. And I think as I was mentioning to you, just before we started this session, I was talking to some other risky women, and one of them was like, Oh, I know, Jennifer Gary, here’s her book. And they had it there sitting right on their desk. So I think that’s fantastic.

Jennifer Geary 10:28
Love that.

Kimberley Cole 10:56
So tell us maybe let’s start with why did you write the first book the How to be a CEO? And was this like, had you always thought, I’m definitely going to write a book, is that how this came about?

Jennifer Geary 11:33
No, I don’t know that I always thought I was going to write a book, it was really born out of need. So as I’ve said to you, I had got some quite broad based experience in my career to date, when I took that first COO role. I had finance, I had technology, I had some legal head risk, but I did not have, you know, in my own estimation, and as you say, we all beat ourselves up, you know, the full skill set. And so I did what, you know, anyone would do, I was researching. I was like, What is this role? How can I pin it down? And I found actually quite a lack of literature in this space. So I you know, I dug really deep I researched individual areas, I leant on my network, I took people for coffee, I learned, I read, you know, all that sort of thing. And when that experience was done, and when I had done my two and a half years at Save the Children, I said, I wished I’d had the book, I’d have a much better view of what the role is. Now, I’m going to see if I’ve got a book in this. And I counted 16 disciplines for the COO role. And I wrote a chapter on each discipline. And I had each chapter vetted by an expert in that industry. So the finance chapter was vetted by a CFO, the legal chapter was founded by a lawyer, the building’s chapter was vetted by a facilities expert. And and I kind of put it out there, I think, almost trying to be a little bit provocative to sort of say, This is what I think the role is like, somebody tell me I’m wrong. And judging by the reception of the book, God, I think it’s done pretty well actually, it seems to have scored, it seems to have resonated with people. And so many people saying thank you, like I, they’ve similarly struggled with this role. So it was born out of need, and it seems to have it seems to have helped.

Kimberley Cole 13:09
And then let’s move on to the second book, the How to be a CRO, tell me more detail about the three, the structure and how you’ve structured that book and what it’s about.

Jennifer Geary 13:20
Yeah, so I liked a lot of the elements of structure that had worked in the first book, and that seems to resonate with people. So I wanted to take some of that and then obviously, tailor the content to the risk areas. So I always start out with what’s this role all about? Why this role? Why you? Why might you want this role? What are the personality characteristics that might predispose you to do well in this role, or actually not so well, in this role? Why might this role not be for you? So I always kind of start with that. And then I’ve always believed that there’s three pillars, whichever C suite role you’re occupying. There’s always three pillars, there’s culture, strategy, and execution or change. I think I called a change in the first book, and I’ve moved to execution. So the first thing is, what is the culture of the organization that you are joining? Or that you’ve come into this role in? And is it where it needs to be? Is it conducive to the organization being successful? And what interventions might you as a newly minted chief risk officer want to make to foster that risk aware culture? I’m not going to trot out all the cliches about culture. But honestly, the single biggest thing that you can do, as a CRO is influence the culture and what people think and whether they’re risk aware and whether they call out things that are wrong. So we talk about culture. We talk about strategy then, what is the organization all about? What’s their competitive mode? What are they trying to do? What stage are they in? Are they growing? Are they retrenching? Are they acquiring? And how does your risk framework then mirror that and impact on it? And then finally, execution. Where is the organization in its lifecycle? And what are the major programs that you’re going to need to deliver to match that point in the lifecycle and to deliver them successfully? So with all of that out of the way, if you’ve got your foundation, you know, that’s kind of like digging down and putting the putting the foundations in, then it’s about building up your risk framework or assessing the risk framework that you’ve inherited. And I put together, it’s by no means the only way in which you can look at risks, I have found, I’d love to hear from your community on this, sometimes it’s difficult to actually get a cohesive list of risks. And so I pulled together the best comprehensive set that I could find and structured them into a little bit of a pyramid. So you could start at the top and work your way down. And so I start with strategic risk, which is basically is your organization’s strategy well designed and fit for purpose? And crucially, is it being executed properly? If that’s wrong, then what’s the point in the rest of it? Right? So we start there in looking at strategy and strategic risk, then I go on to look at people. So all of the people related risks, and also included within that conduct risk as well. So things to do with the actions of your people. Once you’ve covered that, I moved down into technology and all the foundational areas of technology risks. So cyber risk, also things like data privacy, and making sure I mean, nowadays, it’s so pervasive, if your technology platform isn’t solid, then you’ve got a real problem. So that’s an early one to look at. After technology, I go into financial and all the different elements of financial: risk capital and liquidity, credit risk, counterparty risk, market risk, which is a huge changing one at the moment, financial reporting risk, and then finally, all of the operational risks, and I can’t possibly promise to have hit them all. But I picked 20 of the most common operational risks, and talk through each of those and some common mitigants and treatments for those. So it can’t be everything. But hopefully, it’s a very good place to start.

Kimberley Cole 16:45
Absolutely. I mean, it does sound like the bible, as I said, of risk of risk management. So who is the book for? Because I know even with the most recent one, there’s sort of Chief People Officer one, that you’re saying everyone could pick it up a good guide for your CEO and maybe it’s great for some board members who want to understand more about the role. So is it just for our industry professionals? Or can it help a broader range of…

Jennifer Geary 17:15
The main persona that it was developed for the CRO book is new to role CROs or aspiring CROs, so maybe somebody who’s in a risk management position, and wants to get to that role over time, one of the things I’ve always said and impostor syndrome is such a thing, nobody comes to that first role fully formed, nobody does, there’s always something there’s always an area that you’re less strong on. And what my books aim to do is help to round that out to give you those, look into those corners that you might not be feel a strong on, and not avoid them lean into them actually and learn and as a result feel much more strong and grounded in your career. So that is the chief audience. I think, to my pleasant surprise, what I have found is that perhaps CEOs who don’t understand that area so well pick up the book to say, Hey, what should I be looking for from my CRO? Like, what, what’s my role in this? How can I support them? And what can I expect from them? As you say, board members, so people who are on the either the overall board or a risk or audit or governance committee, again, to help them understand what that executive is trying to deal with. And what their role is in providing that governance and oversight along the way. And then a funny one, actually, people who seem to love my book, recruitment agents, right? Because they’re always trying to figure out what what is this role, they don’t work directly in that role, but they’re recruiting for the role. And this gives them a framework to actually break down all the different bits and the personality traits, and it actually helps them refine their search. So that’s a small but interesing population that seems like the book.

Kimberley Cole 18:44
Yeah! That’s very interesting. And we’ll talk a bit more about the skills and the perhaps changes of how the roles are evolving in a little minute. But what feedback have you had so far on the book?

Jennifer Geary 18:55
I’ve had lovely feedback on the book. I’m really pleased. Actually, just last week, I had a CRO in a FinTech write to me, and she said, I’m going to quote her, she said, “My initial thoughts are that it consolidates information I’ve either spent years scrabbling around for, or how to translate academic or theoretical theories into more practical application, or simply had to work out for myself.” And I heard that and my heart just you know, soared because that’s exactly what I was trying to do. I was trying to create something accessible, readable, not, you know, 500 pages long and dry and difficult and that kind of thing. But something that is engaging is conversational, yes, provides you with the technical knowledge that you need, but also a bit of here’s what I’ve learned along the way, right, you know, here’s been the real lived experience. So it’s much more brought to life I hope and much more engaging. So, so far, so good.

Kimberley Cole 19:48
That’s fantastic. I love that. So back onto the skills piece, because you said obviously recruitment people are finding this useful. I think like the world is moving so quickly, especially with all the technology changes, etc. Now I’m sure there’s still foundational and fundamental skills that all risk professionals need, but what do you see sort of changing? And how is the role evolving and maybe a bit of crystal ball stuff in terms of what you think they’re going to need?

Jennifer Geary 20:18
Where next? It’s such an interesting time, isn’t it? I mean, I’ve mentioned it already. I mean, one of the things that came back in a really huge way in the last year was interest rate risk, market risk, they were things that really stayed static for about 15 years, you know, post the crisis in 2008 2009. And we saw what happened when some of the newer financial services companies just didn’t have that asset liability management, some of those fundamental financial skills. So I think that’s one that is back in a in a really big way. And also, I think, related to the cost of living crisis, fraud risks are on the increase as well. And obviously, with the confluence of technology, new and emerging sources of fraud. So I think that’s a real area for attention if you’re a chief risk officer right now. More generally, as a theme, we know about Dora, for example, but resilience, operational resilience is coming to the fore. And I love that because it’s less about fixing something when it’s broken. And it’s more about future proofing it. So the thing doesn’t happen in the first place. And that means resilience in your supply chains. It means resilience in working practices, resilience in your people, it’s that real prevention, being better than cure type approach. And I think that’s something that we all need to foster as risk professionals. And it requires a broader way of thinking and which I think is great. And then more specifically, I suppose in terms of changes, you know, I talk about changes in Building Management and work practices, obviously, post COVID, and so on. But also, you know, we’ve gone from having, in my first book, I talked about 30 year buildings leases, and now you know, you can spin up an office in five minutes, it feels like so that evolution in facilities management and work practices. Technology, we could be here all day. Obviously, everybody at the moment is talking about AI and GPT. And that sort of thing. I went to a really interesting discussion about the metaverse yesterday, which could be a whole other podcast in itself, Kimberley, but the idea, it’s not all about sort of, you know, VR visors, and all that kind of thing, but about the next evolution of the Internet, and the more immersive nature of how we will deal with people, how we will learn, how we will interact and so on. And that was really interesting and nascent, very, very nascent and very early. Two others, I think that have changed our the whole social and people area massively has changed, and how we deal with five generations in the workplace, and how we deal with just the increased it feels very kind of febrile, the whole people in social area. And we’ve got to be very attuned to that. And then finally, the other big one that I’ve spent quite a bit of time talking about in the in the CRO book was sustainability. Because I see that as being really the most fundamental risk of all.

Kimberley Cole 22:57
Yes, I was going to say that, because you obviously, recently did the sustainable finance and ESG investing at NYU Stern. And it does feel like the role is becoming just so broad. There’s so many areas that your chief risk officer, your chief compliance officer’s going to get involved in now. So, I think that’s an amazing summary, but it just shows how diverse it is.

Jennifer Geary 23:20
Sure.

Kimberley Cole 23:21
And so I guess, if you’re going to try to summarize, what should the audience be thinking about in terms of how they keep themselves ahead of the game, in terms of all of this happening? How do they, what skills should they be thinking about?

Jennifer Geary 23:35
It’s so challenging, isn’t it, it’s that really open and learning mindset, isn’t it? And crucially, as a CRO, when the demands on your time are so strong, and so many and so varied, you’ve got to do that thing of delegating the day to day work and giving yourself that time to think and that’s one of the crucial things I say it in all of the books, you know, when you go from that, let’s say sort of manager director role up into that first time you hit a C suite role, all of the things that got you there are no longer the things that are needed. And you’ve got to clear space for yourself, you’ve got to empower the people beneath you. Because if you’re not thinking more broadly, if you’re not sticking your head up and looking around, if you’re not networking outside of your industry, outside of your organization, you’re kind of not doing the job the organization needs of you. So give yourself permission to have that time to think and to connect with as many experts as you can and stay really curious.

Kimberley Cole 24:25
Yeah, I think that’s, that’s really key that you can’t prepare for what we don’t know. So keep that open mindset, that growth mindset to move forward. That’s great. So I am so looking forward to continuing this discussion because we’re starting our Rev-up sessions for Risky Women and we’re doing a whole range of different kinds of skills base, but also just how do we amplify the voices and how do we continue to improve our own skills and not necessarily just the technical skills or around risk and compliance. So I’m super excited that we’re going to have a live session with you on how to write a book, because I’m still in awe that you’ve written three books. And so we can get into all the detail about how you even structured and planned it and how you thought about it. Because I know a lot of people talk about, there’s a book in everybody, which maybe you’ll convince us all that we’re ready to write a book. But I guess to finish on this particular section, what are the future books in the pipeline for the rest of the C suite?

Jennifer Geary 25:35
Yeah, and just to say, one of the great evolutions in this whole sort of platform economy that we have, for me was the Amazon KDP platform, which allowed me to Self Publish. And there’s a little bit of a learning curve around it, but not insurmountable. And because I wouldn’t have known how to get near a publisher or what to do with all of that. And it gives you a lot of control over your content. And you get to keep more of the royalties and that sort of thing. And I actually wrote a blog post about sort of, how do you know you’ve got a book in you, and it’s up on my website. And what I’ve always said is, if you’ve got the Table of Contents, if you’ve got that list, and and you still have energy for each of the topics, and you feel, Oh, I’ve got so much more to say, then you’ve probably got a book in you, then it’s just a matter of the time, it’s a matter of applying the time to sit down and get the words out.

Kimberley Cole 26:18
And we’ll be able to have sort of some q&a around that with the audience too. So that would be fantastic. But also, we’ll put all of those links and everything in the show notes, too.

Jennifer Geary 26:29
Yeah, absolutely. And as you said, I’ve done three, the first two were written solely by me. So you’re from my experience, albeit with contributors and QA and all that kind of thing. The third one was a collaboration. So chief people officer was a collaboration with an amazing CPO called Anne Kiely. Not only she a fabulous CPO, she is my cousin. So I got to try it out on family first before anybody else. And that will be where I take it forward from here because I wouldn’t pretend to be able to write another C suite book through a career that I haven’t lived. So in the pipeline, I’m working on a book on Chief Marketing Officer, Chief Sustainability Officer, and Chief Information Security Officer. So three more on the way. And the aim, Kimberley, if I can get to the box set a rainbow colored box out of books, I’ll be very, very happy.

Kimberley Cole 27:13
Excellent. I can’t wait. That sounds brilliant. So now we’re going to do our final little wrap up series, which I always love to get advice and guidance from my risky women here live on the Risky Women Radio. So besides all the books that we’ve already talked about, but we were like a book to read something to watch and a podcast you recommend?

Jennifer Geary 27:36
I love that and I’m always reading and they say if you want to write you have to read, by the way. So my husband despairs at all the books knocking around my house. I’m going to give you three really quickly. My What If Year by Alisha Fernandez, about a CEO that left it all behind to go back and be an intern for a year. Oh my god, an incredible read. And she’s a force of nature. I’ve met Alisha, she’s amazing. Hagitude by Sharon Blackie, all about women in the middle and later stages of their life and debunking that view of us all being old hags and actually to you know venerating incredible women and their wisdom and in middle and later life. And then finally Enchantment by Katherine May, which is all about rediscovering enchantment when you feel exhausted in an exhausted world. So I’ve got those three books by my bed at the moment and I’m devouring them they’re fabulous.

Kimberley Cole 28:24
They sound excellent!

Jennifer Geary 28:26
Something to watch. It’s not remotely business related, but I’m going to plug it anyway. Bad Sisters by Sharon Horgan. Sharon Horgan is an incredible Irish comedian, writer, actor. And it’s just evil and wicked and smart. And I absolutely love it. So Bad Sisters by Sharon Horgan. A podcast, no Irish person will be surprised by this, the David McWilliams podcast for all things, economics, emerging trends, issues, just really broad based, super easy to listen to. So David McWilliams is fantastic.

Kimberley Cole 28:54
Excellent. And I have not got that on my list. So I will add that I love a good podcast. And if you had a magic wand, and you could change one thing, what would it be?

Jennifer Geary 29:06
I’ve been listening to the other podcast answers on this. It’s just such a brilliant question, isn’t it because it really makes you think, and I’ve put down three words “doing things right.” And what I mean by that is, there is so much in the world right now, that’s really not being done the way that it should be done. And I’m talking about town planning, architecture, design, food, nutrition, climate, politics, health, finance, there are so many things that we know are not being done in the way that they should. And when I think of some of the women I’ve spoken to who are just outraged at things are being asked to do or not do right or cover up or whatever. And I think there’s something and obviously not uniquely for women or or or for women in risk or whatever. But we have got to find our voice and call those things out when they’re not right. And harness that rage and that frustration and don’t just bottle it in but like fight for doing things right. There’s so much in the world that we can improve And actually, if you think about it, isn’t that really what risk management is all about? Is making things better, calling out what’s really wrong, and building for the future and building things to last. So I know it’s super general, but doing things right.

Kimberley Cole 30:13
No, I like that I really liked that. And and maybe it sort of leads into our finally but what is your key message, your thought, or the quote that you would like to end to inspire our risky women with?

Jennifer Geary 30:27
Yeah, what I would say to all of this community is let’s harness that power. Let’s listen to that inner voice and give volume to it. If we feel rage or frustration at something that’s not right, talk about it in the right way, of course. You know, with support with power in an appropriate and you know, sensible way, but speak up. As I said, there’s so many things, we’re not on the right track, and it’s not okay. And we can and we should make things better. And that is the ultimate gift that we give to the next generation.

Kimberley Cole 30:57
That is fantastic. So thank you, Jennifer Geary, for being an amazing, risky woman and sharing your Chief Risk Officer, Chief People Officer and Chief Operations Officer books with us. I think there’s some great reading there for everybody. And I look forward to our Rev-up session.

Jennifer Geary 31:18
Thank you, Kimberley, I can’t wait. I’m looking forward to it.

Kimberley Cole 31:20
Thank you for listening to this episode of Risky Women Radio, be part of the ongoing conversation and learn more about our events and other programs at riskywomen.org