Podcast S6E4 | Amplifying ESG Business Value: Anna-Marie Slot

TRANSCRIPT

Kimberley Cole 0:01
This is Risky Women Radio, a show that connects, celebrates and champions women in risk regulation and compliance. We’re here to share the insights on the biggest issues in our industry and hear inspiring journeys from our global members. Sign up to our newsletter at riskywomen.org. I’m Kimberley Cole, your Chief Risky Woman.

Kimberley Cole 0:21
Welcome to Risky Women Radio, a show. Today’s Risky Woman is Anna-Marie Slot. Anna-Marie is the first global sustainability ESG partner for Ashurst and a finance partner as well. She brings a unique combination of legal, finance and ESG expertise which enables her to partner with other business leaders committed to leading a future focused sustainable organizations. Anna-Marie has developed and led the firm’s ESG strategy across practices and industries through engagement with clients and internally as Ashurst’s first Chief Sustainability Officer, she also launched the firm’s first podcast channel ESG Matters which I have been listening to avidly. And she had the first series that was called 30 for Net Zero 30 – a collection of discussions exploring what companies and organizations need to do in the near term to achieve the 2030 goals around sustainability, net zero and other SDG goals. So we’ve got a lot to cover! And I’d love to hear more about the podcast and all of the things you’ve been covering. But welcome to Risky Women Radio!

Anna-Marie Slot 0:53
Thanks very much, very happy to be here.

Kimberley Cole 1:33
And obviously, we know each other from Hong Kong, which it’s great to be here in London chatting with you. And we’ll try to cover the broad spectrum of roles that kind of exists that all contribute to our risk and compliance and regulation landscape. So it’s great to have you here. And I would love you to sort of tell us more about your career journey to date.

Anna-Marie Slot 1:57
Sure, it’s been not linear! So I started out in mutual fund industry. In fact, after I graduated university, I went to university on the East Coast in Virginia. And then I went and took a job in San Francisco, in part because it was the furthest place that offered me a job. So I lived out there for a while. And then you know, as you do in your 20s, you’re trying to figure out what you want to be when you grow up. And so then I went to law school in Chicago at Northwestern, and started practicing in New York. And I always knew I wanted to kind of go internationally. And law was a very good way of doing that. I also wanted to not be bored, I think, and I have to say in all of the time that I’ve been a lawyer I’ve certainly been a lot of things. I’ve been tired for a lot of it, but I’m rarely bored. And so I started practice in New York, as I said, and then I moved to London, spent seven years in London, then moved to Hong Kong, and was a decade in Hong Kong, still my favorite city to hands down, and then was asked to come back to London and lead up the practice from here. So that’s brought me back. And along the way have gone from starting in finance, and then becoming essentially a finance lawyer. And then building out practices, particularly in high yield. So sub investment grade debt in emerging markets, which is why I was rarely ever bored. Because always there was something interesting happening. And then building on that I started doing green bonds in 2014, when they were first available to corporates, really with the ICMA guidelines, and then just really took off with that and built it into the sustainability focus that I have now.

Kimberley Cole 3:34
Which is brilliant. So yes, lots of different hats that you could say that you’ve got there from lawyer, partner, podcaster, of course. But you also describe yourself as part of a team of intrapreneurs. So tell us a bit more about that. And what’s the scope of the role there?

Anna-Marie Slot 3:51
Yeah, that has been a lot of fun. So one of the great things about Ashust where I am now as partner is that to the extent that you have an idea and that you think it has legs and that it has a market for it, that it would be useful for clients or beneficial, they really do allow you to explore things. So for example, the creation of the sustainability focus in my role as global sustainability partner was something that went internally and discussed why and how and that same approach very entrepreneurial type partners, so we’re part of a bigger partnership. But to the extent that people have interesting ideas that they want to develop, I think there’s a lot of room for that a lot of support for that. So we’re really focused on digital, for example, we have a great now chief digital officer named Tara Waters, and I work with her quite a lot. In fact, you mentioned some of the work that we were doing around sustainability and digital. A lot of that is me and Tara working together on hackathons and various other things that have been really interesting ways to interface with the clients on these topics.

Kimberley Cole 4:56
Hmm, yeah, very interesting, not the sort of traditional view of a law firm I guess. And obviously ESG is a really important topic. And so when you think about that, how do you create impact? And I guess everyone wants to talk about purpose and passion in their roles. So tell us more about that. From your perspective.

Anna-Marie Slot 5:11
Yeah, sure. I mean, it’s just really funny, because, you know, in 2014, when we started working on green bonds, it was like this really uphill battle, why would I do that? That’s extra work for the company, why would the company do that? And now everybody’s very focused on it, which is the shift that you’ve seen in probably the last two and a half years, three years, right. But you still have people everywhere on that spectrum of being focused on it and being interested in it. I have conversations, I had a conversation two months ago with somebody defining what the letter stood for ESG. Right. And so people are really interested in the topic, but there’s so much still to understand about it. And it’s such a huge thing that’s quite hard for people. Because, you know, in business, usually people are running off of a couple metrics, right? One metric that you can quantify. And then they try really hard now to have all sorts of other metrics that measure collaboration, and all sorts of other things like that. But it’s usually always been for that profit outcome, right? And then the shareholders, the stakeholders, but that realization that having such a narrow focus actually doesn’t deliver the kind of world that we need, right? It doesn’t deliver the sustainable business ecosystem that we need. And so I really find people are interested and wanting to learn more about ESG. But just seeing it as so huge, they don’t even know where to start. And then they get completely overwhelmed. And they think, Oh, I know, I’m interested in I know, I want to be doing something, but I have no idea what that means to me today in my business.

Kimberley Cole 6:44
Yeah, that’s very interesting. And I mean, that’s some of what we’re trying to do with this Risk Radar series is break down, because there are so many areas across that from supply chain to all the other kind of elements of diversity and inclusion. And it’s really interesting. So just back briefly, to your kind of career, what are some of the biggest risks that you’ve taken a new career?

Anna-Marie Slot 7:08
I always tended to move. I went from New York to London, I went from London, in the GFC to Hong Kong, in December of ’08. So when the whole world was collapsing around everyone, so I think probably those were the risks going to a new place, trying to start a new practice having to rebuild networks, both internally, but also externally and build business. Because we have to generate business lawyers are these kind of weird, they are the widget, they make the widget, they develop the widget, you know, it’s a strange job, because it has all these characteristics to it. But I think probably that’s the riskiest thing, just continuing to move, especially when you’re kind of safely ensconced in where you are and you feel okay, I know where everything is. And I’ve got my friend group, I’ve got my tribe sorted.

Kimberley Cole 7:56
And what do you think some of the most important lessons that you’ve learned along the way have been?

Anna-Marie Slot 8:00
Yeah, so I had a really good piece of advice once when I was young, which was if you have to make a decision between two places go to whichever place is growing. It’s gone in good stead. Because when things are growing, it’s when you can get in there and add value and make a difference to the organization or to your clients or to whoever that is, but it also gives you room, right? You might be really busy. You might not be sleeping much. But it gives you room to do things right. And probably one of my motivators is life is short, and it would be awful if it was boring, then it would seem long, and you wouldn’t be getting as much out of it as you could.

Kimberley Cole 8:39
Interesting, very interesting. And you sort of covered the advice. If you were thinking about on the other side, like if you had a magic wand, what would be that one thing that you you would want to change?

Anna-Marie Slot 8:50
Oh, do you know, this is a really hard question. I’ve been thinking about this, you sent me this question ahead of time. And I was trying to figure out how to distill what I want as an outcome into a single sentence that portrayed it the right way. And I think if I had a magic wand, I could change one thing, I would get rid of waste. And what I mean by that is wasted time, wasted efforts, you know, people having 20 meetings to talk about the same thing, delete, right, and just come on as one meeting. Let’s move let’s figure out what we’re doing. Let’s go. And I think that comes in part from people feeling uncertain in their position, either through fear or through a feeling of scarcity or whatever it is, but in an organization, you get in and want to create a little protective bubble around themselves. And I think if you could get rid of wasted time, and you could get rid of wasted efforts. So when I look at that sort of sustainability lens, the science on 1.5 is very clear. The IPCC came out with this report. Hundreds of scientists have agreed on what the IPCC says it’s been run through governments – Russia signed off on what the IPCC six report says to tell you like it has gone through the wringer. It’s not under discussion really, it shouldn’t be under discussion. But people still want to talk about why it makes sense to focus on climate risk. Come on, move, move on, we got that, read the report and move on. Don’t bother trying to make it confusing. Don’t waste money on obscuring the messaging, don’t waste money on lobbying against the messaging, just move. So my magic wand would be some kind of, I don’t know how you like suck wastage out of the world at that level.

Kimberley Cole 10:35
So let’s dig into I mean, you’re obviously a global sustainability and ESG expert. You’ve done lots of things in that space. I mean, I think that’s a really interesting thought. And I think in a previous discussion, our previous podcast with Juliet Bourke, she talked about reading a report on a global pandemic years and years and years before we had one. But there’s almost this sense that humans need to have a lived experience of these disasters. This is probably not one that we want to have a lived experience of because how do we get out of it? But you obviously are looking at this also from a very business level, strategically across many firms and thinking about it from an opportunities of what this means to how you grow business. So what are those key areas from a sustainability from a regulatory perspective that business just has to focus on?

Anna-Marie Slot 11:31
Yeah, I think the real key there is to have in your planning a moment at the beginning, where you remind yourself of why you’re there, right? Because organizations are just people, right? You got up in the morning you had to feed the cat, the raccoons gotten to the rubbish and you had to crawl around in your front yard, getting it off the steps, and people are making up an organization, right. And so you go into work, and you plan what you’re doing for the day, and you plan based on what you had yesterday. But the fundamental challenge with climate and sustainability more widely, not just climate, but like fair transition, and people and how you get everyone moving up the wealth curve is it’s not at your doorstep, right? It’s not like the pandemic. And the pandemic is a brilliant example, right? boards had meetings where they said, Oh, what are we going to do in huge events? Are we ready for these things? For example, if we had a global pandemic would we be ready. And a board probably spent 10 or 15 minutes talking about that, right. But then the pandemic came, and everyone had to go remote overnight. That brings that scenario planning right at your front door, in fact, and that’s why I think things like the TCFD, which has been adopted in about five countries. Now, the Task Force for Climate Related Disclosure is essentially a report that makes you sit down and say, from a climate risk perspective, and a climate opportunity perspective, what is it that I’m most exposed to? And then what do those exposures look like on different scenarios? So if the world goes into a three degree scenario, how does my business change? And that’s something that I think is not built into the way a company is currently, it’s starting get built in, but it’s not the normal business approach to strategy setting. Right? No one has put in place that first 15 minutes of the meeting to say, Hey, guys, that was yesterday, if all of our offices flood three times a year, instead of every 10 years, what does that do to how we work? Right? And how do we adjust to that? And what are we doing to stop that from becoming five times a year instead of three times a year. And I think it’s creating that space, and keeping things on the agenda that takes real commitment from companies because you push to do 152,000 things, right? Everybody’s time poor, everybody’s got a lot on their plate, but you have to add that piece in. Because if you don’t add that piece in five years from now, you’re gonna have to add it in a much, much more aggressive way, it’s going to cost you a lot more. Whereas if you get on the train now, you have more time to affect that outcome.

Kimberley Cole 14:20
I think it’s also interesting because there was never a belief that you could transform quite as quickly as everyone did with remote working. If you had have gone to you IT departments and said right, we want everyone to work from home next week, they would have said not possible, three year plan, here’s how we’ll transition. Whereas everyone managed to do it, you know, even to the point of trading floors where they were allowing traders to trade off the floor, which was like…

Anna-Marie Slot 14:47
It should be unheard of! How do I control this?

Kimberley Cole 14:50
Aboslutely! So to me, that’s like a really positive message. So because it is possible, it’s just how much you want to actually do it.

Anna-Marie Slot 14:58
Yeah. How much does it hurt? Right? How much do you need to do it? And I think that’s where you really need companies to just say, okay, look, this is coming, it’s coming at me, it’s coming at me full speed. And this is what it’s going to look like for me if it goes pear shaped. So how do I do things now to try to keep that from happening?

Kimberley Cole 15:17
And putting a sort of risk, compliance and regulatory landscape… Which obviously, our audience loves! How do you see the sort of ecosystem is working effectively? And where do we need to see improvement or innovation?

Anna-Marie Slot 15:32
So risk is a huge part of this, obviously. And it’s interesting to watch how clients approach ESG and sustainability and where it shows up in the organization, right? And who has responsibility for it? And then who does that person then respond to in the system. And so one of the more fascinating things is, that person, whoever that person is, has moved through the organization is now in many organizations directly feeding in to the CEO, or at the senior management level, they’re into the executive team, whoever that looks like. And I think that’s where in particular, risk professionals have a real strength, because you’re used to thinking about risk, because this isn’t about not having any risk. Right? That’s another big challenge here is, there’s risk, it’s in part quantifiable, it’s in part not quantifiable. There are solutions that are in part quantifiable, and in part not quantifiable. And so to have the ability to then value and be able to make business decisions, based on appropriate risk analysis is where I think the risk professionals who’ve been doing this a long time and can say, Okay, this is the likelihood of this, but this is the impact of it. So together, that’s something we really want to stay away from, but this is the likelihood of this. And the impact is much less. So I’m going to spend less time on that. It’s those skill sets around climate in particular, but also with that broader view. Okay, so if we do that, what does that look like for our people? Are we going to lose people? Does that change the way that the firm works at the company works. And I think that’s where the risk and compliance people really come in as valued players in doing that. And one of the biggest things, then for them is to just self educate around climate, because that’s the other thing. You know, as I said, In the beginning, everybody knows that they want to know about it. They know, they don’t know a lot. But everyone’s in that situation. There are environmental experts who have been doing this for years. But in terms of bringing it in and looking at it, most companies are very new at that. And so reaching out to your trade organizations reaching out to industry reaching out to different organizations in whatever industry you’re in, there’s a lot of work being done by people around what is transition planning look like in your industry, you know, what is the built environment look like? On a 1.5 trajectory? What does energy look like on a 1.5 trajectory? The IEA, which is the International Energy Agency has put out pathways that says this is what you have to do for this energy to get to where we need to be. So grabbing those reports, reading them and saying, Okay, well, what does that mean for me in what I do is where I think, in particular, people who have already been seeped in understanding risk can really bring value to an organization.

Kimberley Cole 18:24
Interesting. Yeah, I think that where this whole reporting line and who’s making these decisions, that’s been an interesting shift, and hopefully does the some improvements. Now you also created Ashurst’s first digital products, which was a sustainability focused regulatory tool that helps your clients comply with EU sustainability finance disclosure regulations. Can you tell us more about that and how your customers are using that tool?

Anna-Marie Slot 18:53
Sure. Sure. Sure. And that goes to the question about intrapreneurs, because I was one part of a much bigger team. And the real genesis behind that was one of our partners named Lorraine Johnston, who came in and said, we’ve got all these regulations coming at companies, and particularly at funds, because that’s where the EU sort of started a lot of their disclosure regulations and their guidance around what are the different funds, what can they be investing in? What are they categorized as? How do each of those investments then roll up at the fund level to what you can say about the fund, and it’s not easy. And so in the EU, you have very precise regulations. And you have what’s called the EU Taxonomy, which is essentially a dictionary of what people mean when they say certain words, and those two overlap. So the digital product essentially brings both of those things together in a way to let funds in particular, figure out who they are in that category and then show essentially an audit trail and internal audit trail for themselves. How did I come to that decision? What does it mean to be this fund and then what are my regulatory requirements on that. And I think it’s been really interesting because of the speed at which the EU has been rulemaking. And then if you layer on that the complexity of Brexit and the fact that the UK is now making somewhat similar but slightly different rules, and then with the change of administration in the United States, you have the US back in the game, again, also on disclosure and regulations. Not to mention what’s happening in Hong Kong and Singapore and China. Were China’s had, for example, an EU bond taxonomy since 2014, right. And Australia is now getting in the game with a change of leadership in Australia as well. And so clients, especially funds clients are in a place where there’s a lot of need to understand, what is it that my fund is doing? Where am I regulated? What do I need to be doing in that area as well? Am I in the EU? Am I selling into the EU? Am I UK based. Am I US based? What does that all look like for me? And so the tool has been an ike to kind of simplify at least the first level of that it’s been really interesting, because what comes out of that is a client still want people to talk to about things. So even with the tool, the tool is there. And you can do it all yourself. But you still want somebody to call and say, Okay, I did that right. I think I did that right? And then what are my next steps. So that’s been a really interesting way of looking at what we do as lawyers and digitalizing, some of it and then retaining the one to one connectivity with clients about, you can still call me and ask me your questions, too.

Kimberley Cole 18:53
So it’s almost just an added value in terms of people can do a bit of investigation, but then they still want to have that conversation.

Anna-Marie Slot 21:46
Yeah! It’s been fascinating to see because it really the two have worked together. Because you know, when you first start products like that, and in fact, we have a digital arm, and their whole focus is how do you transform law and the provision of legal services through that digital lens? Like, what is it that clients want to use? And how do they want to use it what they want access to? And so it’s been very interesting to see how clients will use the digital tool, but then also still want people.

Kimberley Cole 22:12
And you talk a lot about this sort of intersection between sustainability and data, and how data is being used. Where do you still see that there’s gaps? And how is that sustainability and data evolving?

Anna-Marie Slot 22:23
Yeah, it’s gonna be a big thing, I think for the next decade, really, because so much of what people are interested in hasn’t historically been tracked, right. And so, you know, there’s carbon emissions numbers, and you can track those for yourself. That’s not too difficult for people to figure out. When you start getting into your supply chain, that becomes much more complicated. And as you get further and further down your supply chain, that becomes even more complicated in terms of even having suppliers that are tracking those things. Particularly for us, we’re a services company. And so we don’t have a lot of emissions for ourselves, right? You know, we’ve some offices around the world and we have people, but we don’t manufacture a product. And so our main emissions are actually in what’s called scope three, that supply chain aspect of what we do. So where are we sourcing our paper, in particular, where our data centers that we store all of our information and our systems, our IT systems, like if they’re on the cloud? How is the cloud computing being provided? Is it renewable? Is it not renewable, and so a lot of what’s going to increasingly be part of a company’s look at itself is the need to get the data all the way through that supply chain, as well as for themselves. I mean, I said, we don’t have a very complicated scope one and two, that’s our own emissions. But we do have over 28 offices around the world, some of the offices like here, we’re the anchor tenant was very easy for us to get a lot of information, we have very good relationship with the people managing the building, in some offices we’re one floor. And so our electricity usage, our water usage our waste is very hard to determine. And so right now that data, and the sophistication of that data is evolving for everyone, because we’re trying to figure it out, everybody in our supply chain is trying to figure it out. And so over the next few years, there’s gonna be more and more data. The real challenge there, of course, is data that’s useful as opposed to data for data’s purpose. Right. But it’s going to be ongoing. And I think there are a lot of people right now working on what’s the data solution, and particularly in end of the value chain. So pick an industry: organic cotton. There was a bit of a scandal a little while ago, where an analyst had figured out how many retailers said they used organic cotton, and then added up that number. And then had looked at the worldwide production of cotton, of which only 5% is organic, and said, Oh, these numbers don’t match. Funny that and it turned out what had happened was if you went all the way down into the bottom of the chain, there were people who were manufacturing organic cotton certificates. So the companies had certificates that said, I have certified organic cotton. But the certificates weren’t real. And so the companies, through no fault of their own, didn’t have the right information on which they were making their statements, right. And so there’s a lot of work being done at that level to say, can you instead, take a landscape approach on that data and say, I source from this area, and based on satellite, and this and that, and the other, I know that area is an organic area, or is not an organic area. If you think about how many suppliers are in your supply chain, 1000s is normal, even for people who aren’t making something. And if you make something, you’re probably talking 10s of 1000s, you think a car car has probably 10s of 1000s of supply chains in the production of a single car. So welcome to 10,000 data chains.

Kimberley Cole 23:15
That’s really, really complex, interesting problems to solve in terms of how you make that better. But you’ve obviously been talking to many people on your own podcast, which is Ashurst ESG matters, which has been really interesting. You’re looking at sort of that business transformation that’s required by all of us, and how do we really drive sustainable and resilient or a sustainable and resilient world for future generations? So tell me about obviously, I’ve listened but just to give us a snapshot of some of the people that you’ve been talking to, and I know the series the 30 for Net Zero 30. So which episode do you want to start with?

Anna-Marie Slot 26:38
Oh, so many. It’s actually been fantastic. So yeah, we started ESG Matters at Ashurst a little while ago, and I started with the 30 for Net Zero 30. And I’ve deliberately tried to keep the people coming from lots of different places and lots of different industries. But with the same sort of questions to get the different viewpoints, there’s been fascinating episodes in terms of I did one on regenerative architecture. And that was really fascinating. I like it, because you think about the built environment. And you think about buildings, you’re building buildings today, that generations who haven’t even been born yet, will be living in, presumably. And so how do you make sure you don’t build in a problem 30 40% of carbon emissions associated with buildings, or just from the building of it. Like you don’t even have to open up and turn a light on. It’s in the manufacture of the cement. You know, Portland cement has been manufactured the same way since it was developed. And so I thought that was a really interesting episode for me. The first one is always fun. Sean Kidney is the head of the Climate Bonds Initiative. And he’s kind of a little energy source all on his own, in terms of driving sustainable finance, but really interesting, because he’s been at it a long time talking to different policymakers as well about how do you create frameworks so that people get out there and actually start funding things that we want built. So they’re all fun, I really liked, I did one with Denise Chen at Melco, talking about what’s the sustainability challenges of a casino? And they were talking about water, obviously, because you know, cases and cases of water bottles, and how do you change that, and what machines they brought in and how they had sourced the solution. And I think that one was really interesting for anybody who’s trying to make massive change in an organization, it was really interesting to see how she pitched the savings of that to the firm, because a lot of the things that you can do in the near term have good wins. Energy efficiency is a massive win for every company. So how can you do more things with less energy?

Kimberley Cole 28:48
Yeah, lots of obviously, good top tips. And we’ll put the link to the podcast so everyone can listen to some of those. Anything that really surprised you or that you didn’t expect through doing the podcast or tips that you learned?

Anna-Marie Slot 29:01
Yeah, no, it’s been fascinating. I have one of these mics like we’re using today. This is fantastic mic, which I love. And so I didn’t realize how much I’d love my little mic. But I think the really interesting thing has been the uptake on it. Because you know, I’m a partner in a law firm. But we’re ranked I think fifth in sustainability podcasts by this group called Feedspot in the UK, and I thought, Oh, wow, that’s pretty cool. Because who would have thought that people would be interested in listening to ESG Matters at Ashurst. So that’s been really fascinating. And it’s also been really interesting because the podcast in some ways, we have numbers that show you how many people are listening to each episode and where they are. And so it’s reached over 80 countries as well, which I thought was fascinating. But you don’t get immediate feedback, right? Whereas in a panel or you’re speaking at a conference, you know, you can see the crowd and whether or not you’ve still got them also on a Zoom call. You can kind of get some feedback but with a podcast, there’s no feedback, even though we always say at the end, leave us anything you want to hear or any suggestions any comments – people still don’t really comment that much.

Kimberley Cole 30:03
Yes, five star ratings and comments are always appreciated, because I totally agree. But no, I recommend everyone listen to it. I’ve been out hiking in Hong Kong listening to your podcast.

Anna-Marie Slot 30:15
But we’re also starting our new series. So if anyone listening here has any good ideas or things that you desperately want to hear about, let me know.

Kimberley Cole 30:22
Excellent. Yes. Well, I’ll have a think about that, too. And when you think about what are the best companies doing ahead of regulations, and how are they driving that sustainability agenda?

Anna-Marie Slot 30:33
Yeah, I think really, the best companies have just baked it into how they look at everything. Right. So they just see it as another metric, you know, they’ve sat down and said, okay, for us, what is material in terms of how we affect the climate, but also how the climate affects us? So what are we using? And what are we affected by, are all our officers on a floodplain, for example. And then they have taken that, and they have embedded it into how they think about the business. So quarterly, they get information on that. Those are the people who were really driving the change, because it is uncomfortable, and it is painful, in some ways, because it’s different, right? It’s much easier to come in and do the same thing that you did the last time. But it’s also a huge opportunity. Because if you think about how exciting is it to come into your business every day and think if I were going to recreate what we do today, knowing what I know, today, if I were going to start this over tabula rasa, fresh slate, what would I do? How would I do it? And I think that’s such an interesting idea. And those ideas come from everyone, and anyone. And people are like, I’m not that creative. I’m not that innovative. That’s not me, I went to this great conference and there was an author there who had a book on innovation. And he did this experiment with us where everybody had five pieces of Lego and you didn’t know they were Lego, until you got there until you got your little five pieces. And he gave you 30 seconds to make a duck. And everyone’s duck is different. Everyone’s duck was different, right? We had 60 people in the room, there were 60 Different ducks. And you think, ha, and he said, Why do you think everyone has a different duck? And it’s because you don’t have time to do research. You don’t have time to talk amongst yourselves unless you know each other well, right? You could probably collaborate if you knew each other well, but you just have 30 seconds, and all the ducks look like ducks. So you think everyone does have that capacity for innovation. They just don’t necessarily have the 30 seconds allocated to it. And the space that says okay, well, it doesn’t matter what your duck actually looks like. It can be a flying duck, or a small duck or a big duck. So don’t be afraid of creating a weird duck, just make it happen and see what happens. And then you have 60 choices of how to do things instead of one.

Kimberley Cole 32:57
I love that. That’s fascinating, gosh, if you’ve got a photo of the ducks, please send it.

Anna-Marie Slot 33:04
I love the ducks! I took photos of the ducks.

Kimberley Cole 33:07
So now our little Risky Women wrap up to just finish off. Are you optimistic, pessimistic or neutral in your outlook for the year ahead?

Anna-Marie Slot 33:17
Yeah, well, so I’m trained as a lawyer. And I’ve spent a couple of decades as a lawyer. So that’s a naturally not optimistic group of people, right. But I think to my mind, you have to be optimistic, otherwise, you can’t get enough motivation in play. I do oscillate one of the podcasts that I like listening to this podcast called Outrage and Optimism, which is presented by Christiana Figueres, the ex UN chief, and a couple of other folks who were very instrumental in putting together the Paris Agreement. And I like that, because I think it’s a good combo for sustainability. You are alternatively outraged and optimistic, and you kind of oscillate back and forward between that in the world of ESG. Because there’ll be something that you’ll find and you’ll think, oh, yeah, excellent. And then you’ll see something else and you’ll think oh jeez come on people. Are we really having this conversation?

Kimberley Cole 34:04
Well, that was my next question was a book to read something to watch for a podcast? So that’s great one, yes, unless you’ve got any other?

Anna-Marie Slot 34:10
No I like Outrage and Optimism on podcasts. The two books that I think are really great also are Factfulness by Hans Rosling, I don’t know if you’ve read but it’s a brilliant book that talks about what we think about our world versus what the current statistics actually say. And that I find a really interesting book because basically, he kind of calls out that everybody is essentially basing a lot of their worldview on what they learned in school. And you never really update from that because you’re not sitting in history and geography class every day anymore. And so, a lot of what you think of the world is not actually where the world is now. You’re anchored in the past, sort of accidentally so Factfulness I liked as a book. And I recently read a book called Scarcity, which is really interesting that talks about how the brain responds to situations where you’re feeling scarcity, because you’re not making optimal choices because you’re constrained. Those would be my three.

Kimberley Cole 35:10
They sound fantastic. And of course ESG Matters. And Risky Women Radio! So, lots there. And if you wanted to leave us with a key message, a thought or a quote, what would you like to end with to inspire our Risky Women?

Anna-Marie Slot 35:29
I think when it comes to ESG and sustainability, pick an aspect that you’re interested in and just upskill yourself.

Kimberley Cole 35:37
Excellent, clear, decisive action. Well, it’s been brilliant to see you here in London and wonderful to have you on Risky Women Radio. So thank you for being a Risky Woman.

Anna-Marie Slot 35:49
Thank you very much for inviting me. It was my pleasure.

Kimberley Cole 35:54
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