Podcast S5E5 | Stop Fixing Women: Catherine Fox

TRANSCRIPT

Kimberley Cole 0:01
This is Risky Women Radio, a show that connects, celebrates and champions women in risk regulation and compliance. We’re here to share the insights on the biggest issues in our industry and hear inspiring journeys from our global members. Sign up to our newsletter at riskywomen.org. I’m Kimberley Cole, your Chief Risky Woman.

Kimberley Cole 0:26
Welcome to Risky Women Radio. Today’s Risky Woman is Catherine Fox. I am absolutely thrilled to have Catherine join us today as our first in our Risk Radar series. In the Risk Radar series, we’re taking a 360 degree view of risks facing leaders, everyone from boards to management teams and individuals. And today we’re looking at the diversity risk and the need to invest in women. Catherine Fox AM is a leading commentator on women and the workforce. She’s an award winning journalist, author, presenter, and has spoken to audiences around Australia. During her long career with the Financial Review, she edited several sections of the newspaper and wrote the Corporate Woman column. She’s published five books including Stop Fixing Women, which along with her journalism was awarded the 2017 Walkley Award for Women’s Leadership in Media. Her most recent book Women Kind which was co authored with Kirstin Ferguson was launched in 2018. And examines how female solidarity and support is rebooting the global women’s movement and Risky Women was thrilled to be mentioned as part of that book as well! So Catherine has helped establish the annual Financial Review 100 Women of Influence awards in 2012. And she was named a Woman of Influence in 2018. She was a member of the Australian Defence Force gender equality advisory board, and sits on Australians Investing in Women board. She’s also the co founder of the Sydney Women’s Giving circle. So welcome, Catherine.

Catherine Fox 2:09
Oh, thank you, Kimberley, how lovely to be chatting with you.

Kimberley Cole 2:12
Absolutely. So I’ve obviously given an amazing sort of snapshot of your career, and the awards that you’ve won. But can you sort of take us on your career journey and how you’ve got to where you are?

Catherine Fox 2:24
Well, yes. My career journey, I suppose. And certainly around gender equity, probably traces back to when I moved into journalism, so took me a few years to get into the media. So I worked for a while in financial services, I worked for an investment bank, in London, and so on, always in a communications role. I’m not a technical person at all, but then joined the Financial Review and got my eye on that Corporate Woman column really early on, it had been in the paper for some years and written by a number of different people. And I’m not overly strategic about things normally. But I remember thinking, oh I’d like to write that. And the woman who was writing it, when I joined the paper, sure enough, announced she was leaving. I hadn’t been there that long, actually. And I went straight into the editor, and said, Would you be prepared to let me have a go at writing that weekly column, it as quite a big sort of leap of faith for him? And he said, Yes. And I started writing, it became a real labor of love, I did it on top of a number of other jobs that I had at the paper. And it became a platform that allowed me to interview incredible women and men who were involved in the whole area, as well as business leaders and academics and so on. And it developed quite a following. And so over the years, and I wrote it on and off, I didn’t write it consistently, because I went off and had children and then came back. But I found that I was being asked quite a lot to speak at events, conferences, and so on. So I started to find that I was building a bit of a parallel career, if you like, that was very much around gender equity. And that’s when I started to write books. And then one thing led to another and when I eventually took redundancy from the Financial Review, nearly 10 years ago, in fact, I was able to then sort of dedicate myself to my other career if you like. So, still doing a lot of work, consulting work, research, writing, and board work in that area, if you like of gender equity.

Kimberley Cole 4:24
Excellent, I would love to dig into that a bit more. And if you weren’t doing what you are doing now, what would have been your dream career?

Catherine Fox 4:33
Yeah, that’s an interesting one. I was so committed from such an early age to be a writer. So I ended up doing really what I had always wanted to do. But funnily enough, also, when I was quite young, for some reason, I got it in my head I wanted to be an architect. I would have been appalling. I mean, I wouldn’t have been got through the first year of architecture. But I did have that in the back of my mind for some reason for a long time. And then obviously, reality slapped me into shape a bit. So ummm…

Kimberley Cole 5:00
Sounds like you’ve got your dream career, then you wanted to be a writer.

Catherine Fox 5:03
I actually did. I did.

Kimberley Cole 5:05
That’s fantastic. And what would you say are some of the biggest risks that you’ve taken in your career?

Catherine Fox 5:11
I think the biggest risk, in fact, I will say this advisedly, is having kids, I actually think that we often sort of gloss over this and ah women, you know, they go off and have babies. It is one of the biggest, most momentous occasions in your life it up ends everything, particularly for women, I am fully aware that men are also parents. But as we know, the way that we structure work, paid and unpaid, still contingent on women doing the vast majority of unpaid work and making the adjustments to paid work to accommodate that, and to support often their other half. So I think that’s sort of what will happen to my career, my job, my earning capacity for heaven’s sakes, when I have and I had three children in two and a half years, I want to jump in and explain I do understand what contraception is, however, we ended up having a two year old and then having twins naturally conceived twins. So this was not planned, it was hugely disruptive and very difficult. And just very seriously, for a lot of women in lower paid lower skilled areas, that capacity to bring up a family and to try and bring money in and so on, is just enormously compromising. And as we know, it means that for a lot of women who spend their life caring, they end up in poverty after retirement or if they get to retirement. So these are not small issues. And actually, it is a big risk, a really big risk, even for someone as privileged as me.

Kimberley Cole 6:40
Yes, absolutely. And so, I guess, similar theme, but what do you think are some of the sort of important lessons that you’ve learned along the way?

Catherine Fox 6:49
You mean, generally, rather than just bringing up kids? Yes, because one thing I would say about bringing up kids is, I wasn’t very good at it. My husband and I always say that the girls kind of grew up despite us. We absolutely adore them. But I think the lessons along the way, and I do like to phrase it as lessons, because I don’t think I’ve got any answers that I can hand out to other people, I can tell you what’s happened to me. And some revelations I’ve had, some penny drops, I think, asking for help at the right time, especially when you are struggling with that blending of personal and unpaid work, and paid work and so on is absolutely essential. Building up your allies. I’ve always had wonderful female friends and family around me, which has been well just irreplaceable, and just gets you through. And I guess one of the big lessons I learned and it’s reflected in my books, specifically in Stop Fixing Women, is at a certain point, I realized that I would take quite personally failure, well as one does, but I’d have a setback and I’d really beat myself up and think, Well, you made a really stupid decision there, you shouldn’t have done that, it took me a long time to understand that sometimes those decisions were contingent on the norms around me, I was being assessed in a different way, I wasn’t getting the same opportunities as some of my male peers. And I’m not using that as a crutch, because I absolutely have made mistakes, like every human being makes mistakes. But I did understand that the cards were stacked against me because of my gender. And at a certain point, when I understood that, I actually drew some strength from it, it actually lifted a weight from my shoulders and made me think, oh, goodness, what could I do at that point, I didn’t really have choice, I didn’t have lots of viable options. I had a lot of judgment around me as a mother and a career and so on. So I think that for me, that moment was a bit of a breakthrough. And I really have tried to impart that to a lot of women, because I think they get encouraged to blame themselves a lot, personally, for decisions and changes that they make in their life that they have very little choice about.

Kimberley Cole 9:03
Interesting. So what I wanted to talk about today was really this concept of risk radar with this diversity lens on it. So if we’re thinking about creating that risk radar, or that dashboard of laying out where we are on gender diversity, what areas would you sort of list out of those key ones that need to be watched and are still issues for us?

Catherine Fox 9:28
Well pay and progression, the two Ps absolutely essential. And of course, the other one, which I’ve been writing about and researching for years is having women around the decision making table in fact. We’re not doing brilliantly on that. And I can speak obviously about Australia, but I also know internationally that the statistics are poor. Australia’s actually dropped down in terms of global standards. Global Gender Gap Index, which we look at every year, we’ve dropped significantly on that, especially around economic participation, which is very worrying, political representation as well, although that is improving a little since the Federal Election earlier in 2022. But I think that the metrics around where are women? Are they well represented throughout an organization? Are they being paid fairly? And are they being retained and given a chance to build good careers, solid working lives, I think are the ones that we have to look at. And of course, if you’re a consumer facing organization, you must be aware of your market, who are the people that you are marketing to the goods and services that you produce? There’s a very good chance that in many, many sectors, considerable number of them will be women, if not the majority. So if you’re not aware of that, that is a massive risk, massive, and of course, as the world becomes more complex if you don’t have a full complement of skills in your organization, and as Julia Gillard, our former Prime Minister, I said, you know, talent is evenly spread through the population. If you have an over representation of one gender, and not the other, you’re missing out on crucial skills.

Kimberley Cole 9:36
Yeah, I was actually thinking Julia Gillard’s book, Women in Leadership has some really good statistics in there as well. And obviously, I’m based in Hong Kong, you know, the FTSE 100 has had a lot of focus as has the ASX of getting more women on boards. And in Hong Kong of the top 50 companies listed only one has a female CEO. And then the other statistics that was part of the reason that I put together Risky Women Radio was to bring more female voices on key topics. And still, the statistics are like only 24% of persons heard read about or seen in the news media are women. And even worse, only 4% of news stories clearly challenge gender stereotypes. Now, I don’t have the kind of background of exactly where those statistics come from, but feels like it’s still absolutely a huge issue. In one of your first books, the 7 Myths About Women and Work. My kind of focus I remember when I read that was on the meritocracy myth. It was a real revelation, when I read that. Have steps been taken, do you think to change that myth?

Catherine Fox 12:13
I think some have been and to be fair, I think people are a bit wary of the actual word merit now because it’s come onto the radar. As you know Kimberley in Australia, there’s a group of non listed company, organization CEOs who are in something called the Champions of Change Coalition. So they come together to actually try and get more women into leadership. And they actually put up research around the whole idea of merit and what it actually means. And it’s such a subjective term, which is the problem I’ve always had with it. And it’s also become an excuse, basically, to say that we didn’t actually properly spread the net and look at a whole range of candidates, we just felt that this person had more. So I think that we’ve come some way towards it. But in a number of recent instances about appointments in our New South Wales Government, the word merit has come up again, and I’ve been appalled. There’s a definition of merit in the book, by the way, Kimberley, which we may as well throw in because it always gets a laugh, but it’s actually there’s a serious point to it. And it’s not one I came up with the male director actually told me, he said, merit actually stands for “mates elevated regardless of intellect or talent.” That’s what the word merit stands for. And I think actually, I’ve read that definition out a few times to very mixed audiences, audiences of police, actually, which is predominantly men, and they all nodded their head because everyone’s seen a bit of a nepotistic appointment, or he’s my mate, hence he gets the job. So merit, I think is still a very flawed concept. And I would like to see us tighten up on the way that we assess everybody in organizations instead of just saying, Oh, no, we think this to be actually much more specific, because one of the things we actually do know about the way women are assessed when they’re actually going for a promotion or a job is that they’re marked down. And some very recent research looked at this marked down in terms of potential, how much potential they have, there’s a really big area of bias around that. So they come in with fantastic performance credentials, but they’re marked down as not having potential. What’s that about? That is about bias. So I think we have to be way more specific about how we’re making a decision in those important times where someone’s up for a promotion or a new job.

Kimberley Cole 14:29
Yeah, that’s very interesting. And you recently wrote an article called Lean Out: Lessons from the Feminist Backlash and you talked about some of the areas where potentially we’ve been sort of a bit misguided. Can you share a bit more on that?

Catherine Fox 14:43
Yes. And I did write that for a specific reason, which I’ll come back to in a moment. A bit of a discussion going on in in Australia certainly I think elsewhere as well. But the reason I mentioned it is this is not a personal attack on Sheryl Sandberg. I mean, she actually bothered to write a book at that time. And it did bring up for discussion, a lot of really important issues. So go on her, what disturbed me when it came out and continued to, it was very much about the individual. So it was tweaking individual behavior. I certainly say yes, it’s important for women, if they are around the table to make their point of view known but some people like me had been trying to do that for a long time. And the problem actually isn’t so much women, it’s the people around them who are not listening to them. We know statistically speaking, women tend to get interrupted in meetings much more they have their ideas appropriated. It’s about the systemic sexism that they’re facing, in fact, and no amount of attempting to lean in. And let’s face it, Sheryl was writing for a fairly privileged and senior group, I think, as well, that no amount of that is going to change the attitudes and assumptions of embedded sexist behavior in organizations. So I think that was the problem. The other one was if we talk behavior, you may get a short term result, you may get someone who said, Look, I leaned in and I got that. And that’s great. No one’s begrudging that. But it is short term, and it will not apply to others, it may just apply to them in very particular circumstances. So it doesn’t change the dynamics. And that’s what we have to change, we have to change the rules and the way that we do things, because otherwise, that will always be specific to those people. It also says that the burden rests on a woman’s shoulders to change. And that is not the case, it is our organizations and our systems that must change. Otherwise, we will never see anything approaching parity. So I think it’s that that we’ll focus on the individual. And the focus on women who, in fact, I know we don’t like to use the word victims, but they’re the ones who are suffering from marginalization. Whereas in fact, it’s the men around them, and particularly men in power, who need to actually start to change those things.

Kimberley Cole 16:58
And you said, you wrote the article for a specific reason?

Catherine Fox 17:00
There’s been quite a big debate here, and a very welcome one about the need to focus the discussion around gender and so on, on improving the care economy. Now, of course, it’s coming to absolute sharp relief because of the pandemic. And like every country, actually, probably around the world, enormous pressure on health, aged care, teaching all of these pressures of being faced by many, many countries. And of course, they are female dominated. So the workforce is in all of those areas. So a very welcome change. But as part of that, there’s been a bit of why have we concentrated so much on women climbing the ladder, or corporate feminism and so on. As I say, I have some sympathy with that there are elements of it that I think were short sighted, and have not done us any favors, but we still must, we must continue to try and get more women into decision making. And we can’t just say, Oh, it’s not relevant for a woman in a white collar occupation. Fairness isn’t relative. Fairness should be everywhere. And we can walk and chew gum at the same time, we can absolutely advocate for people working in the care economy to be better paid and better treated. But we can also continue to advocate for more women in leadership and on boards. Because we also know that women in leadership make an absolute difference to the number of women promoted narrowing the gender pay gap and changing the agenda. So absolutely essential.

Kimberley Cole 18:23
Yeah, absolutely. And what initiatives have you seen that have been more successful?

Catherine Fox 18:29
I think down to earth stuff where you actually investigate the way that you recruit. How are you advertising? I would make sure that you have long lists and indeed shortlist that are diverse. How do you go about making that decision? So harking back to our discussion on merit, actually having checklists, and making sure they’re looked at and properly adhered to. And the other ones that I would suggest are targets, I know the word quota sends the business community into a bit of a frenzy, but putting goals in place, and reporting on them. And doing that consistently. And goals in place, by the way, again, not just for the very top, but making sure that women are well represented and properly paid. Oh, and on pay, of course, the gender pay gap audit movement, which I think more and more organizations have been taken up, which is a good thing to see. So it’s something that’s tangible, and that can be measured and reported on.

Kimberley Cole 19:21
Stop Fixing Women was another one of your fabulous books. Have we stopped trying to fix women? And I guess where has there been success? What else do we need to do there?

Catherine Fox 19:32
I don’t think we have stopped fixing women. But I’ve been delighted to see the reception of that book, because a lot of women have approached me and said, this has been a penny drop for me. This made me realize that my entire life people have been trying to fix me. I’m not quite right. So they’ve actually it’s resonated in the right places. And a couple of our large employers actually used it as a bit of a manual to change their approach to gender equity, which I was very happy to hear of course so music to my ears, but I think there is still a bit of a default. And the reason is, it’s so much easier, it’s low hanging fruit. Oh, look, the problem here. It’s not us, couldn’t be us. But it’s you women, if you’d only negotiated more, if you just lean in, if you do, so tweaking US has always seemed like, you know, because let’s face it, the people who are at the top they have a vested interest in defending the fact that they got there on merit, that they’re just damn good. So there must be something wrong with us women, if we’re not coming through in the numbers, you know. So I think that we’re still trying to fix women. Yes, indeed. And I think that whenever I can, I’m telling people, this is a pointless exercise. Not only that, you’re embedding the very stereotypes that we’re trying to dismantle. You’re telling women all the time, they’re not naturally good at leadership, they’re not good at decision making. They’re not good at negotiating. They’re not risk takers. There is no evidence that any of that is the case. And I’ve just been at a conference as we speak in August, for two days that Commonwealth Bank put on, a lot of younger women who are running businesses and doing extraordinary things. Those women have all taken massive risks, they’re incredible negotiators, I just can’t tell you how uplifting it was to hear and see from them. So it’s time to really sort of eradicate, it’s been a convenience. And it’s done nothing to change the dynamics around sexism and bias in our organizations. So I’m still on the soapbox Kimberley.

Kimberley Cole 21:28
Excellent! Well, we’re glad to have you there. And when you’re currently speaking to boards and other leaders of big businesses, what are those conversations, you know, what areas do they still really need to focus on?

Catherine Fox 21:41
I think that it’s interesting the board area, I think that there’s been quite a focus in this country, certainly in the listed company board space, there’s been, luckily finally a bit of an uptick in the number of women appointed, not resoundingly but around 33% now of listed company, top listed company boards, and I should make that point, it’s ASX 200. So beyond that, the percentage drops. However, I think that this idea that ignoring this whole area, or at least at the very least glossing over it, and doing a bit of compliance work, I think that is now seen as being very disturbing. And we’ve had a number of large companies here, who’ve had notably A&P, a financial services company that went through quite a big scandal. And a lot of women in that organization, were just furious about the way that the senior executive there had been treated, and despite actually a complaint of sexual harassment being made against him, so I think there is this nail your colours to the mast, don’t just tell us you’re an equal opportunity employer, that you have zero tolerance for sexual harassment, we want to actually see the evidence with that. And I do think that boards are seeing and hearing that well, and truly, and of course, as you know, it’s part of a much bigger ESG debate. So that has much, much more resonance. Now, a couple of the big resources companies in Australia have been tackling some very poor statistics on sexual harassment, and sexual violence at their remote locations, this stuff is appalling, and it affects your share price. This is not a minor matter. So we’re seeing examples of that all the time. And for those reasons, I think boards are becoming more and more alert to the real risk. This represents by not being properly addressed, reported on gathering the right data, and so on. So I think there’s more literacy at board level, what I would like to see is more application of those ideas and making sure that they’re being quite rigorous about it.

Kimberley Cole 23:36
And who’s doing it well? And, you know, what impact have you seen there? I mean, obviously, you mentioned share price, et cetera.

Catherine Fox 23:38
There are some interesting companies that are doing some good stuff, but not in one sector. And I think that again, I think this is the case in other countries as well. So I can’t point to one sector that seems to be outperforming. But there are a few. Novak, the construction company has done some remarkable stuff, does have a woman CEO, and a couple of, more than a couple of very talented women on its board. And I think it’s put a lot of things into practice. A lot of the measures I’ve been speaking about. Energy Australia, another sort of different company, they eradicated the gender pay gap. Rigorous research looked at it, they look at it every year, they didn’t do it once and then think it was fixed and forget, and they got rid of that gender pay gap. There are organizations that are doing it Lion Nathan, or Lion as it’s called now, the drinks company have done the same thing, a very male dominated business, they’ve eradicated the gender pay gap. So I’m seeing interesting examples of that. And they’re, as I say, in a wide range of sectors, it’s not one area, and it’s not always what you’d expect. In fact, it’s not necessarily an area like health, which you know, will often have, obviously more women employees and more women in senior ranks, but not to say some of them aren’t doing some good work as well. But I have been fascinated to say some of these organizations, quite proudly, saying we’ve actually addressed that, and we’ve changed it. So the big weak spot, if you look at the data, though, remains not so much boards room for improvement at board level for sure. Its executive leadership ranks. So still very low at around 24 – 25% women. And as you know, that’s the pipeline into the C suite, and so on. And that’s still quite poor, so much more work needed there.

Kimberley Cole 25:27
And so if you have a crystal ball and you’re thinking about the future, what do you think is going to be the biggest impact that we can make? Or what is that thing that we should be really focused on as a mandate to change gender equity?

Catherine Fox 25:43
I can’t ever say one thing. And I know because I get asked that all the time. And I think that’s the problem. I think we do get asked that. The reason progress has been so slow, there’s obviously many reasons, but one of them is a whole lot of things have to happen. It can’t be one. But I mentioned right at the beginning, having more women who are making decisions, whether it’s as teams, whether it’s at the very senior rank, in the community, in our governance, in our society, we must have women there who are making those decisions, gathering that information, and reflecting their own experience in the decisions they’re making. It’s absolutely essential, I just can’t emphasize that enough. So that is when you will get action because they will understand that they have to do a whole lot of things. It’s not one, and it’s not one versus another. It’s not a zero sum game. But a whole lot of stuff has to be done and can be done. We’re good at multitasking. But we do need more women to be consulted and listened to. It’s a simple thing. But it’s still very tough. I think certainly in this country.

Kimberley Cole 26:47
And anything recently that you’ve learned that says totally blown your way?

Catherine Fox 26:52
I’m sometimes surprised by the anecdotes I hear still from women in again, an array of different workplaces and how they’ve been treated. I know I shouldn’t be in a way. But I’m just appalled by how some women and actually very well educated and sometimes quite senior women have been bullied and harassed and spoken to. It’s quite awful. And it’s just that feeling, hasn’t that changed? And you know what, it still hasn’t, and often enough, if it’s a more senior woman or woman in a professional role, it’s done behind a closed door. And there’s still an awful lot of harassment that’s going on. And then you hear you know, that galling remark from a senior man saying, oh, women, you know, why don’t they stay, they just leave and you think, you know what, you have a few incidents like that. And it’s it’s very hard to stay in organization. So I think that that, while it doesn’t totally surprise me, I’m still sometimes just again, this conference, which was an uplifting one that I’ve been at, I heard a few anecdotes that made my hair curl. So we’ve still got a long way to go. There’s also a lot of backlash. So again, it’s not formal or ___, under the surface, a huge amount of resentment and anger.

Kimberley Cole 28:12
So another good section for you to get some of these ideas out. But my Rants and Revelations, we do this with all of our Risky Women. So on the revelation, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?

Catherine Fox 28:26
I think I’m gonna get back to what made me write Stop Fixing Women. And I’m not sure that someone passed it on to me, but just in conversations I’d had over such a long time, I thought we are continuing to try and fix us rather than looking at the environment we’re in, simple thing, but just made such a difference to me change the whole way that I looked at what I was doing, and a lot of my work. So I think it was probably people like the wonderful Liz Broderick who is now Sex Discrimination Commissioner and continues to work in the area, people like Anne Summers, you know, and so on. Just, we’ve discussed over the years and I just thought, yeah, that’s the thing that made a big difference to my outlook, and I say, took a weight off my shoulders. And that also motivated me.

Kimberley Cole 29:10
I suggest everyone reads it. And now a good one. The Rant. What’s your rant? If you had the magic wand, you know, you were in power over everything for the day, what would you change?

Catherine Fox 29:23
I’ve been asked this once or twice before. In fact, I was asked to give a speech once you know, what would you do? And I said, Here’s what I do. Every single man in power in the entire world I would replace with a woman. That’s what I do.

Kimberley Cole 29:36
Wow!

Catherine Fox 29:39
It’s only lasting for a day. That’s fine. You get a replacement for the Pope. I’m joking, but I’m not like I’ve had a long run and it hasn’t been going brilliantly. I think it’s time let’s shift them out. There’s plenty of women around the world. Just replace them all with a woman.

Kimberley Cole 29:57
It’s just a very interesting visual, just seeing this transformation.

Catherine Fox 30:02
Yeah, absolutely is but may as well give it a go.

Kimberley Cole 30:04
Absolutely.

Catherine Fox 30:06
Why not?

Kimberley Cole 30:08
All right. And to wrap up, we’re going to do our Rapid Fire Round. So in one word, okay, what is the biggest risk of not focusing on gender equity?

Catherine Fox 30:19
Revolution.

Kimberley Cole 30:20
Oh, I like it – with my Rs too. Most important focus for the future?

Catherine Fox 30:28
That was a tough one. You know, I looked at that. And I thought, I just have to give one word?

Kimberley Cole 30:32
Yeah, can be a bit, or you can look, I’m flexible. But…

Catherine Fox 30:37
Because I’m trying to think of one word to say, who has authority? It’s really important, who has the wherewithal and the authority to make decisions. So I can’t but that into one word. But that’s where I think we have to be looking.

Kimberley Cole 30:49
And are you optimistic, pessimistic or neutral in your outlook for the year ahead?

Catherine Fox 30:54
I’m always optimistic, which will sound counterintuitive. And as though I’m contradicting everything I’ve said. But I’m not because what I’ve been explaining about the barriers, I think there’s so many fabulous women around. That’s why I’m an optimist. And I think they’re becoming more and more energized.

Kimberley Cole 31:10
Excellent. And what word represents success for you?

Catherine Fox 31:15
Ah, success? I think, satisfaction. Not pride but satisfaction. I think there’s something really kind of grounding in that word.

Kimberley Cole 31:27
And what do you think the top skill is going to be needed for the future?

Catherine Fox 31:32
I think it would be something to do with the capacity to see talent everywhere – to take the blinkers off, actually, and I think that we’ve got a long way to go, not just on sexism, but racism and other forms, homophobia and so on. I really hoped we’d be further along that line. But I don’t think we are taking the blinkers off and seeing the world, seeing people for who they are not the color of their skin or any other factor.

Kimberley Cole 32:01
Yeah. And now we just want to end with some Risky Women Recommendations. So to end, can you tell us what’s the books that you’ve read or something that you’re watching that you think everyone would benefit from watching or reading?

Catherine Fox 32:14
Absolutely. So the book that I’d like to recommend I read a few months back and then interviewed, well, actually, no, I didn’t interview directly but heard the author speak at King’s College in London, and the book’s The Authority Gap, Mary Ann Sieghart, who’s the English journalist, and she was in conversation with Julia Gillard, at the Institute in King’s College. And I just think it’s an excellent book. And even for someone who considers themselves fairly well versed in the area, I found it eye opening. So she’s got some extraordinary evidence there. And while it’s a bit a bit shocking, I think it’s also uplifting at the end, because it just pulls the scales from your eyes. And I think every man I know, should read it. It’s fabulous. It’s a fabulous book. I loved it. What am I watching? Well, you know, interesting that I’m very late to the party and fully aware of it. I hadn’t watched Borgen. And so many of my friends said, You must watch Borgen, but it’s just an extraordinary, extraordinary series, so many things that you’re interested in. And they’re absolutely right. So I’m up to series three, and of course, series four, which didn’t come out all that long ago. I will then watch, so I’m absolutely loving it. It’s fantastic.

Kimberley Cole 33:23
Excellent. And finally, what’s your favorite podcasts?

Catherine Fox 33:27
The Rest is History is one of my favorite podcasts, which is an English podcast series. And my husband’s been listening to it. And my daughters have been listening to it. And I’ve started to dip into it. Absolutely fascinating. Just goes all over the place. And I love that. And I do occasionally I suppose not really podcasts, but the BBC Woman’s Hour, I will listen to as a podcast, which I also thoroughly enjoy.

Kimberley Cole 33:48
Me too.

Catherine Fox 33:49
Yeah. It’s great. Love it.

Kimberley Cole 33:51
Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Catherine, it has been absolutely wonderful to have more of your insights on diversity, gender equity, and what we need to do. So thank you for joining us on Risky Women Radio.

Catherine Fox 34:06
Well, thank you very much for having me. And I do hope we can be in the same room at some point in the near future.

Kimberley Cole 34:12
I do too. Thanks. Thank you.

Kimberley Cole 34:17
Thank you for listening to this episode of Risky Women Radio, be part of the ongoing conversation and learn more about our events and other programs at riskywomen.org